Cycles, Stuck at the O Cliff, and Clitoral Stimulators

So this is a rather long “question” that covers multiple things. I didn’t think any of these topics merited their own thread, but tied together they do. The short version is that, despite our excellent success with the vibrator, some of our LMing times end up going exceedingly long and can be quite difficult for Zelda to get an O (even though she can be right on the edge for the majority of the session). I think I can summarize it to three bullet points if you don’t want to read the wall of text below.

  1. Her ability to O seems to be the opposite of most women around her ovulation time: she gets stuck at the cliff and can’t take the final step. Anyone else have this problem?
  2. That is part of a larger problem of her frequently struggling to get that final step to an O. She gets stuck at the edge for really long timespans sometimes. Are there any suggestions on how to make the final step happen more easily?
  3. We have purchased (still being shipped) an air-based clitoral stimulator for her with the hope it alleviates the problem. But is this really the right way to head? Should we try other things or even consider that we’re making the physical-pleasure component too important?

While we’ve talked about this a lot already and decided to go for the stimulator to help things be more fun/easy in our MB, I would appreciate all thoughts/experience in this area. I’m also hoping that this post and subsequent discussion will be helpful for others searching for answers in the future.

 

Female Cycle and the O

A little background: as I’ve stated here before, Zelda didn’t get her first O until 12 yr of marriage (6+ months ago) when we added in vibrators, and we’ve had spectacular success with them. We also used NFP and started monitoring her cycle maybe 1.5 yr before getting married, so we have about 14 yr of experience with her cycle and arousal/desire patterns (not counting time lost with pregnancy and nursing), though we didn’t need that much, as it was clear how her cycle was affecting her even before we married. The main take-home message is that she usually only feels spontaneous desire during her Ovulatory/Ovulation Phase (see this this plot, where I’ll also define the Menstrual Phase as the first 4-5 days of her follicular phase.) The lone exception is that she would sometimes feel it the last 24 hr or so of her Luteal Phase, though that hasn’t really happened since the birth of our youngest.

From our existing understanding of her cycle plus the reading I’d done, we both expected her to be the most easily orgasmic around the time of ovulation. As we’ve gotten further from birth and breastfeeding, her occasional spontaneity in the Ovulatory Phase has indeed returned, and she is easily aroused, well lubricated, and begins feeling physical sexual pleasure immediately in our sessions at that part of the cycle. However, we were completely wrong about her ease of orgasm in the Ovulatory Phase. It’s certainly never been “easier” at that time, and it’s usually more difficult. I think that 4 out of the last 5 months have had an unexpectedly difficult time to O near ovulation, despite her readily getting sexual pleasure, and lots of it. This was exemplified this cycle, where she seemed to be on track for her fastest O ever, showing the telltale signs of an approaching O within 3 minutes of PIV+vibe…only to not get her O until roughly 45 min later, after I’d finished and was helping her out manually. Even then, she struggled and seemed to just slip into it when I lucked into a perfect spot with my fingers.

So, my questions in this area:

  • Do other people experience this or has anyone read this kind of thing?
  • Is it just her biology?
  • Could it be something from still being less than a year since breastfeeding?
  • Any other odd cycle things other have seen?

 

Getting Stuck at the Edge

As described above, Zelda will frequently get in a good groove and show signs of an approaching O, yet end up stuck and unable to go over the edge. Worst case was 30+ min of PIV+vibe followed by maybe another 50 min of additional stimulation. As you know, we’re still new to her O and learning her patterns, but this is frustrating and not dissimilar to what we experienced early in marriage with OS.

Contributing factors could be movements of her hips (near max arousal) changing the angle, making it hard for me to maintain proper internal stimulation. My own excitement could also be a factor, changing things up accidentally in my excitement. Her own mental state is another thing—either choosing to “reach” for it or getting psyched out by a “failed” approach. One thing that seems odd to me is that this seems to be a problem now but wasn’t as much when we first started with the vibe.

Oh, and except for the above description and early in the Luteal Phase, there does not seem to be much correlation to her cycle. And while I describe the problem in terms of PIV+vibe for stimulation, she can have these problems with vibe only or with fingers+vibe, which we do after I’ve finished. It’s been problematic enough that several times she ended up with a significantly sore clitoris the next day. It’s just tough to “give up” knowing how engorged/aroused she is and that she will struggle to sleep without the O.

In something of a “first-world problem” scenario, this seems to happen more frequently if we continue after the first O with continued stimulation to the point where a second release is needed. I think only once did the second one come easily, even though she frequently thinks it will!

So, my questions in this area:

  • How many others have struggled with this?
  • Is this normal?
  • Any suggestions on how to overcome this?

While we’ve managed a 97% “success rate” in getting her the O, some of those were so hard fought we wouldn’t have gone for it had we known the difficulty in advance.

 

Clitoral Stimulators and Chasing Pleasure

Given these above problems, we’ve decided to try out one of the air-pressure-based clitoral stimulators in the hopes that they’ll be enough to make this final push less of a problem. Think Satisfyer, Womanizer, or SONA. However, we’ve opted for the newer We-Vibe Melt because of its couples-friendly profile and remote-control-by-phone option. Should arrive tomorrow in the mail. I do plan to post an update letting you all know how it works for us (maybe after a few tries, and it may be a while before we have the courage, as trying something new is mentally tough).

Clearly, the success of the clitoral stimulators is going to be woman dependent. Instead, my questions in this arena are thus a bit different:

  • Are we too caught up in physical pleasure?
  • At what point is more stimulation not a good idea?
  • Would we do better to approach it from a mental standpoint and work on foreplay and other arousal avenues?
  • I know there is a vein of thought out there that jumping to toys is a shortcut that reduces intimacy. While I don’t necessarily agree with that reasoning, is there some truth to it?
  • Oh, and by doing this will we be moving farther away from achieving my desire of getting her a toy-free O?

Keep in mind we’ve already decided on trying the stimulator. I think I’ve matured to the point where I’m no longer worried Zelda’s going to can me for a toy. Thus, I’m posting all this more for the discussion aspects than anything. I really value all your viewpoints!

-Scott

Um Scott, I see you are analyzing this a lot. It seems important to you. I hope it is to her too.

My psych opinion is that O is two things; brain and the area around the vulva, as we call it. If supplements or diet, exercise or even meds work, then great. Most women as I have read, need to just “let go.” Whatever this means it requires thoughts to relax and stay in the moment. If it is true for you that its a vulva thing then use vibrator, supplements, etc. But mental side of O requires the woman to stay in the moment. Her; security, temperature, bladder empty, regular meals, no kids screaming behind your door, she loves you, no religious stress, she’s not mad at you, she’s nude and clean as you may also be nude…its a lot for a woman but her settling on these things I mention is done in a microsecond. She won’t dwell on any one item and check it off. Its either on her mind or not.

My wife for instance, on an xmas holiday weekend when she has cooking to do, gifts to wrap, her mind is on those things, not O. The man is ready to ML that morning and could care less about wrapping, cooking…he’s knows it will take care of itself. But she cannot shut that light off. Thats why scheduled sex is often the solution. When you schedule it, she has to be with you for that duration, as requirements go. My situation sometimes requires scheduling because of the chaos with 7 kids in the house. So perhaps its not a physical thing Scott.

anyway, consider these thoughts.

on June 5, 2020.
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16 Answer(s)

    All i have to say is as a woman, it is EXTREMELY frustrating!

    I was at that point when i went on HRT. All of it felt EXTREMELY pleasurable but couldn’t get to that big bang point and just gave up. It was a hormonal thing absolutely. So probably a large part of it is indeed physical where there isn’t much you can do about it.  If she’s able to get there HERSELF much more easily, then that is something you can do before PIV or even after.  I am proud of you that you quit making it about yourself as a man, i had to insist on that with my husband and now he seeks out the vibe and hands it to me!

    FOR ME and i doubt this would work for Zelda but fantasy gets me over the edge. i am not talking at all about fantisizing about someone else or something sinful like girl/girl things but just some fantasy that gets me there. I would prefer not to but i’ve decided to give myself some leeway and not condemn myself at this point and that is very important.

    On the floor Answered on March 17, 2020.

    I’ve noticed this for me, too. Often, the fantasy is simply picturing my DH doing something sexy, but it is still that additional picture in my head that is that final little push I needed.

    on March 18, 2020.

    Zelda has used memories of some of our hotter sessions to help move her along. Not sure how frequently she does that.

    -Scott

    on March 21, 2020.
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      I have no answers at all, but I wanted to say kudos to all of you on here, for putting so much effort forth, in your marriages. Kudos to the husbands for loving their wives so much and for the effort they have/are putting into this. Kudos to the wives on here whose hubbies are also so accommodating! Its amazing and humbling to me!

      When I came to the old TMB, the love that most men had for their wives, despite problems and all, was the most impressive thing to me. And I just feel it radiating off this this whole thread. Keep it up everyone and God bless your efforts!

      Under the stars Answered on March 18, 2020.

      As I said in an “answer” to you, I feel the same way. So blessed to have all this feedback coming in!

      -Scott

      on March 23, 2020.
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        I often face something similar in the few days right before my period. I know it’s hormonal related, and I have just accepted it. I inform my husband of the timing that way he knows not to expect an O from me and that way he doesn’t have to tire himself out trying to achieve something that just isn’t going to happen. For myself, it takes a lot of pressure off of me and I am fine without an O during these times. If I happen to achieve one, it’s a bonus….and sometimes I am surprised that by relaxing with no O aim, it actually aids in me getting there.

        I used to feel like using a vibe was me getting lazy and cheating us out of something. But yet it actually made things, especially mentally, so much easier, so I believe the benefits have outweighed any negatives.

        There is a fine line between knowing your body and your ways, and accepting it, versus testing the waters to see what more is out there and never reaching that “ultimate goal” or being satisfied. If it’s robbing either you of joy and enjoyment of sex and each other, it’s gone too far.

        There’s actually great intimacy in exploring and experiencing new things together. It takes a lot of trust and vulnerability, I believe it can show the health of a couple and their sex life. Don’t let fear keep you guys from a greater intimacy. Again, if you notice that you’ve crossed a line, and have gotten too focused on the wrong thing, and one is feeling unseen or like an object, step back and recalibrate. Think of it as a dance, sometimes one of you will misstep, sometimes toes might get stepped on…expect it, but don’t sit out the dance and don’t give up… keep enjoying each other as you are learning together.

        Like SOA, fantasy, or maybe a more comfortable word, my imagination is a huge asset. It doesn’t have to be anything sinful, I personally rarely ever imagine another person, but I focus more on scenarios. I can imagine us in other places being more risque. I can go back to recall certain times that were more thrilling for us (maybe because they were riskier.) If you fear that she’ll dissociate attempting that, have her verbalize it, or you can verbalize it and take her there yourself. It’s not too different than role playing except it’s verbal and in the mind rather than physically acting it out.

        Under the stars Answered on March 17, 2020.

        This comment was quite helpful. The next-to-last paragraph especially. Those are good reminders of how I should be looking at this.

        As far as fantasy, she already uses that to a degree. Maybe verbalizing it would be helpful…especially me verbalizing it to her. We’ve never tried that.

        -Scott

        on March 23, 2020.
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          My overall experience is not all that similar to Zelda’s, although I do sometimes get stuck and have discovered how to–many times–overcome it.

          I had learned about orgasm before marriage and knew what it felt like and that I wanted it and felt like sex was incomplete if I went too many encounters in a row without one. I was motivated to find a way for us to make sure I could O during our times together, and soon figured out toys did the trick. In recent years, with peri-and now menopause, I have struggled with getting just “almost” there and then feeling stuck. When that happens, I notice that every part of my body is tense, like I am attempting to force my muscles to contract involuntarily. I’m generally holding my breath and focusing my attention with laser-like precision on my clitoris or vagina, while at the same time trying to push the full-body shudder out through my skin. The best word to describe my “mood” at this point is determination. I am determined to have my O, no matter what! Focusing all that energy and attention and determination in one spot is exhausting and hard to do for any length of time. Sooner or later I find myself like the roller coaster car that just couldn’t quite make it all the way to the top of the hill, and I begin the gradual slide down backwards. HERE is where I can turn the tide. Instead of an immediate stop or giving up, a little desultory movement will often stir those initial feelings of arousal again. Not the almost ready to O feelings, but the ones that made me want to start creating friction in the first place. So the first thing I do is to RELAX EVERYTHING, accept that it might not happen, and then just enjoy the initial arousal. I focus on the pleasure that being slightly aroused gives me and make movements that repeat and enhance that feeling. I keep it slow and focus on the movement of my body and feeling sensuous and decadent. I consciously let the most pleasurable feelings spread like warm honey to the rest of my body,  and I picture beautiful images of our togetherness in my mind. Usually, NOT always, but most of the time, next thing I know I am flying.

          I realize this can be summed up as, “relax, don’t reach so hard, and let it happen”, but I thought maybe a detailed how to do that might help.  Best wishes to you both.

          Under the stars Answered on March 18, 2020.

          Thanks for your answer Duchess. As a man, it’s hard for me to envision exactly what you’re describing. However, Zelda and I have talked about how it’s easier to O when she’s not reaching for it, as well as more satisfying.

          -Scott

          on March 23, 2020.
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            I’m very curious to see what others say here too. Just last night, I said something about being on the edge (not in a sexual context), and DW retorted “I’m always on the edge!” The tone and look that came with it made clear she meant in bed. The conversation continued a bit, as she was indeed referring to how she gets stuck (often for 30-45 minutes) on the brink of O before finally getting there. Unlike @Zelda, she isn’t interested in trying a pressure wave toy (yet), but I’ve been thinking in that direction lately. Hope to hear how that works for you @Scott!

            On the floor Answered on March 17, 2020.

            First pass was that she found the pressure-wave clitoral stimulator uncomfortable on even the lowest setting. It’s like she’s too sensitive or something. I’ll post with more details later.

            -Scott

            on March 21, 2020.
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              @lovabug99: “Edge” is definitely the right word. It’s like unintentional edging. Zelda thinks the very idea of intentional edging is absurd because of how easily she loses the course on the final ascent to O. And I know at least one HD wife on these boards has said something similar (despite her being multi-orgasmic once she gets going). Thus, I don’t think it’s uncommon.

              @SOA: Thanks so much for your feedback. 🙂 Zelda definitely feels the frustration (and did early in our marriage when she was pre-orgasmic and we had the same problem with OS). On those tough nights, after she finishes we both just lay there and try to put a word to it, but don’t quite have one (something like frustration or disappointment).  It’s like a bittersweet feeling, and the O can even be a bit painful for her, as her clitoris is pretty uncomfortable by then. That’s one reason we’re looking at the air-based stimulators.

              Unfortunately, she has similar problems with the vibe and getting herself there, though sometimes (not always) after PIV+vibe she has decent luck, as I think it permits slightly better focus and a little less vulnerability than either PIV+vibe or vibe+internal MS (though either of those two can bring her more pleasure than a vibe itself). In terms of going before we even start PIV, we haven’t tried that but I’m worried her arousal would be too low, as she seems to get much better blood flow to her vulva from PIV+vibe than from anything else. Part of that may be mental, as sex is largely PIV in her mind (and I’m not complaining on that one even if I know her definition should be broader 🙂 ).

              Also, it’s tough to not make it about myself as a man. We men just really seem wired to want to please our wives. There’s certainly genres of porn made around that. I fight the urge to blame myself for not getting her there with just me alone. It makes me feel like a failure as lover/husband. Think “if I was only bigger/harder/longer/thicker/better with my tongue/more attractive/a smoother talker…” As you point out, it’s likely physical and not about me (and Zelda swears it isn’t), and I think us husbands get that logically. But just try the role reversal to get where we are emotionally–what if your DH had never, and I mean never, been able to orgasm from your hand/vagina/mouth/other both part? How would that make you feel in terms of sexual prowess?

              -Scott

              Under the stars Answered on March 17, 2020.
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                @Scott, the experience in changing arousal, ramp to climax, and ease to go over the edge for Zelda sounds similar to our experience. Although Mrs. Youngbear was quite orgasmic from our wedding day and throughout her child bearing and fertile years, once she had an oophorectomy at age 45, her orgasms were ‘different’ as she explained it to me. After she stopped taking HRT (the awareness of problems with HRT was not well-known 25 years ago) her ease to go over the cliff and experience a powerful orgasm has diminished over the years.

                These days, Mrs. Oldbear more often wears out or loses her focus to push over the edge when we are in the throes of intimacy. The first time that happened was 18 months ago, and it took me by surprise. That evening she had, what I thought, a wonderful orgasm. Instead she sort blurted out, “It’s so hard these days and my orgasms are weak or fizzles,” We talked about using a vibe, being creative, even exploring ideas with her Dr. She naturally shies away from toys and supplements/prescriptions, so we’ve focused on being creative.

                We prize intimacy. We’ve doubled-down on verbal, playful, and close encounters of loving intimacy. Sometimes we’ll pet like horny kids. Other times she’ll pull me to her breast for a time of deep intimacy. We also believe in the importance of the O. For that reason, Mrs. Oldbear masturbates more these days than in her younger years. When she is able to take advantage of the moment by herself, she can concentrate, fantasize, and take herself over the cliff with greater ease. IOW, we now accept the fact that the powerful, simultaneous O days are mostly behind us.

                Do explore vibes and toys, be creative, and encourage her to use her imagination, as SC suggests. In fact, in my elder years, my imagination of creative/erotic acts with Mrs. Oldbear and replay of our great sex moments have given me some of my best masturbatory orgasms. Also, encourage, be patient, and be gentle (as you clearly come across on TMB) with her. . . and yourself.

                Blanket on a secluded beach! Answered on March 18, 2020.

                Thanks for the kind words and great suggestions Oldbear. I definitely need to be gentle on myself. I can really take these failures as my failure/fault and beat myself up about it for a long time. I still blame myself for the dozen married years of no O for her. 🙁

                -Scott

                on March 23, 2020.
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                  Scott i don’t know how old Zelda is but i’m taking HRT and since i’ve had some vulvar sensitivities ie soreness despite Estrogen therapy, i started using an OTC Estrogen cream (it works…!!) a very small amount rubbed onto my vulva/clitoris and it made O’s very easy and increased libido.  OR if you do not want to use Estrogen, you can use one of those DHEA suppositories that do work…. It could be something you could discuss with her doctor, also if she’s in her 40’s chances are she’s in perimenopause and progesterone could be important for her also but she should talk to an HRT doctor. For me it’s almost entirely about hormones even though i do use fantasy to get myself over the edge.

                  On the floor Answered on March 18, 2020.

                  Thanks for your suggestions SoA. We are mid 30’s.  Once she gets older, we may consider topical HRT, but for now we’re avoiding things like that. We have our entire marriage, having intentionally stayed away from hormonal BC from the start, opting for NFP instead.

                  -Scott

                  on March 23, 2020.
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                    i would say there are times when my wife will not be able to “get over the cliff” and it’s always when her hormones are tanked, which is a little harder to tell when she’s so far into menopause in her early 40’s.  There are just times when she or we both know it and it doesn’t usually matter what we do after a certain point. The only time she’s been able to go over the cliff after that time is on occasion when we turn back and she focuses on pleasuring me and stimulating me before orgasm in whatever form. Sometimes her response desire will kick in as she turns me on and she want her turn before I finish OR after I O, she’ll insist on manual stimulation to O for her.

                    i don’t have an answer as to why and neither does she because her response in the low cycle  of whatever hormones she has isn’t predictable.

                    Under the stars Answered on March 18, 2020.

                    Thanks for your thoughts, NWNL. I think you’re right (as are others here) that it’s hormonal and/or physical. I’ll give more thoughts in my detailed answer.

                    -Scott

                    on March 23, 2020.
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                      Hi Scott. Scott, my DW has the same kind of problem that Zelda does; there are times when she gets ‘stuck’ on the edge and cannot quite have an O no matter how long we continue stimulation.  A bit of background on our situation. She did not have her first O until we had been married for over 20 years, and after she had a hysterectomy. I don’t know why we waited so long, but at some point we decided to give sex toys a shot, and after going through many, many kinds of vibrators, bullets, etc. we tried a wand style toy that did the trick! It was a real dream come true for us since we both had nearly given up hope that she would ever have an O.  A few more details before addressing your questions. I have discussed this before, but in brief our typical love-making session starts with some cuddling, kissing, etc, and then when she is ready for the main event, she will lie face down on top of the wand with me at her side. While she applies the wand to her private bits, I lie next to her, tickling her back, squeezing her butt, stroking her genitals (from behind), until she has her orgasm. If possible, I try to end up with my fingers located inside her such that I can feel DW contract during her O. After she O’s, we engage in PIV sex,  and while she finds it pleasurable, she has never been able to have an O from this kind of activity. I would say that using this technique is successful maybe 75% of the time we make love. Typically, we have sex every Saturday morning, and once during the week if circumstances permit (we are not tired, kids are occupied, etc.)

                      Now to address some of your questions. First, my wife is post-menopausal so we have no observations to offer regarding the relationship between her cycle and those time she ‘get’s stuck’. Second, if we have not had sex for over a week, then she is much less likely to get stuck. Indeed, on those occasions she can have an O in under 5 minutes. On those times when she does get stuck, nothing we do can bring her over the edge. Continued stimulation just makes her feel sore. Third, we continue to try many other kinds of toys in an effort to address the ‘being stuck’ issues, as well as to see if we can develop a different routine that will lead to an O. Mainly, these efforts have not yielded much success. We have tried all manner of air-based stimulators with no success. We did have limited success with an eroscillator (bought on sale…those are really expensive!), and with a smaller vibrator. However, nothing works as well as the wand, and most times rather than experimenting we use the above technique since it seems to work most of the time. I would really like to find a solution to the ‘getting stuck’ problem, but I have learned to accept this since her having an ‘O’ 75% of the time is better than where we were before (0%). I also would like to find a way for her to use the wand in a position that would allow her to O with me inside her, but I think that our flexibility (or lack thereof) is going to make this difficult.

                      I am sorry I don’t have any suggestions for you. DW and I have come to a place where we continue to work on the being stuck  problem (with  new toys, activities, positions, etc.)  while being grateful for the improvement we have had  in our sex life.

                      On the floor Answered on March 18, 2020.

                      Olorin, I really appreciate your comment. I think you may have unintentionally hit on something here:

                      “Second, if we have not had sex for over a week, then she is much less likely to get stuck. Indeed, on those occasions she can have an O in under 5 minutes.”

                      While not as severe as your wife, I think Zelda is similar, though less severe. After accounting for her cycle, this may explain a lot of what we’re seeing. I’ll give more details in my follow-up answer.

                      -Scott

                      on March 23, 2020.
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