navigating a quickie….or not

Answered

    First I want to say that all is fine at home. Second I want to say that if you are a young HD male, or newly married, you probably won’t understand this dilemma fully. The knee-jerk answers of “I would have jumped on that chance” are not relevant. I know all of those answers and I am not a rookie nor scared to swing the bat. It’s deeper than that. Thirdly I want to say that I recognize my DW is trying hard. She just can’t get out of her own way. I want to help her.

    As I was finishing coffee, sitting on the bed, not immersed, but perusing some news article, she came in and said “you want a quickie?” Nothing to lead into it. No good morning kiss or hug (from neither of us). She would have to leave in 15 minutes. She was in her underwear, but otherwise made no overt motions. It was with a smile, but otherwise just matter-of-factly . Everything was fine between us leading up to this. There has been no kerfuffle over sex in days. In fact there has been some great sex (as my praise post outlines.) But this felt very stilted and contrived. The last sex was Sunday morning and it was fine. However, I feel like I knew her motivation, as it came through in her tone/words and later in her actions.  I did not bring that up. My immediate reaction was to say “well….maybe.” I embraced her but there was no blood flowing to pertinent areas. The TV was blaring and it was starting to irritate me so I said something about that. She sorta huffed a little but grabbed the remote and muted it. Then I could see her force a smile and try to recover. We lay there a few minutes and gently caressed one another. For a moment I could feel a little spark building, then she put that out in quick order. How? She can’t keep her mouth shut.

    For some reason this morning (even a little bit now), my eyes were dry. I had lot of “sleep” in my eyes this morning. As we were lying there, she laying across my lap, I was opening my eyes wide and blinking hard trying to get them to tear a little. She made a face at me in jest. When asked, she said was just mimicking what I was doing. I said “my eyes are sticky this morning…” She immediately exclaimed “GROSS!”

    I hate that word. I hate the way she uses it. I hate it mostly when she uses it in description of something about me. My eyes being sticky,  my feet, my semen….like I can control any of those things. I NEVER say that word in reference to anything about her person. NEVER. I won’t go into the times when I could have, but I never have out of respect for her feelings and for how I would want to be treated. For some reason, her usage this morning struck me hard and I did not hold back how it made me feel. I told her I hate that word. Nothing about my eyes being “sticky” was gross, or disgusting, it was just a thing that happens out of my control. I told her I hate the way she used that word so often. Everything isn’t “gross”.  Needless to say, any thoughts of sex were blown up. She got up and said “well, I guess this isn’t going to happen.” She then said she was “sorry and she would try to do a better job next time.” Sounded a little like a backhanded attack on me but I let it go. I said nothing more until she was about to leave. I then took her in my arms and sincerely said “I appreciate the thought. I’m sorry it didn’t work out.” 

    There is a lot to unpack here I’m sure. She admitted to recognizing that I was not ready for that this morning. I wonder if that was also meant as a lesson to me on approaching her. It could be, even in not meant that way.  I was not against the idea in toto. Had she made a direct approach that indicated her enthusiasm for the event. even in a small way, I would have reacted differently. I realize that is likely never to happen so I was trying to get my mind right when she threw the “gross bomb.”  

    SIDEBAR: This is a woman who otherwise seems to revel in grossities. She has a literal trophy shelf of wolves (horsefly larvae) that she has taken out of animals. Not to mention other similarly ghastly things in glass jars of formula.  She takes pleasure in zits and pustules. Debriding days old wounds and reconstructing disfiguring injuries lights up her day.  Yet my sticky eyes are “gross!” My semen is toxic waste….  She has no sense of empathy in these situations. None whatsoever. I’m a farmboy and a hunter. I have seen and done many harsh things. I’m not squeamish or “grossed out” by those things, but I’m not enthralled by them either. I had to make a rule that some stories from work were not to be discussed at the dinner table in gory detail. I have had some of my own stories that I would not want shared in that venue. She has honored my request for mealtime conversation. Even so, I  avoid using the word “gross” or “disgusting” in relation to her stories. I have simply said “I’d rather not discuss these things while I’m eating.”  I will listen to any story she wishes to tell at other times.  So back to the bedroom….

    I like quickies as much as the next guy. But it seems my darling wife just doesn’t understand how they are supposed to work or what they are supposed to represent. I know she is trying. I am trying to recognize her for that. But I don’t want to always be telling her how she is screwing it up. She thinks that’s all I do now, that I’m never satisfied and always looking over her shoulder. So am I forced to live with mediocrity? I did what I could this morning to salvage what I did see as an honest effort on her part to serve me. I tried not to focus on the things she could have done better in that, but did let my feeling be known about the “gross” comment in all honesty. For her, I know she viewed it as just another failure on her part. I don’t want her to fail. I want her to succeed. I would have loved for her to come over and throw herself on me in execution of a passionate quickie. I’ve told her that before. She just isn’t capable, so she does the best she thinks she can, then she throws stumbling blocks in her own way. I don’t think intentionally. Unfortunately, she isn’t very capable of responding positive to a passionate quickie either – but that is another problem for another day.

    So what could I have done differently?

    I could have said “sure!” But then I would have had to say “you need to get naked and start touching/sucking on me.” Telling her what to do is a sure way to make her angry. I could have ignored the “gross” remark. That one would have been perhaps the most difficult. It was just a gut reaction that I did not think through. Just a reaction to a face slap. I guess I had kept my mouth shut for so long about it, I was just full. I could have exercised better control of myself there.

    I could have said “No, I’m really not up for it, but thank you, I love you for asking.” That’s probably what I should have done…. 

    Whew! Lemme take a stab here. I perhaps need to review your posts but lets go from just the one incident/quickie;

    Some assumptions: She offered which is unusual from your past as a couple. You don’t appreciate her comments during the deed. Neither of you started out nude. She had exactly 15 min to do what sounds like a BJ. ok. She doesn’t like interruptions because she has been a gatekeeper/low sex drive person in the past but now she is making great effort to really do sexual things for you to help satisfy your sex needs…again because she is low sex drive. It also sounds like you really don’t like disrespect. (she said gross, so you feel like those comments are for kids or for others)

    I think that discussing quickies and what it specifically means such as LM or BJ or HJ AND how long you need in order to “finish.” If you are really so bothered by little comments then yeah discuss it. However, do you want a war over small comments? She is making real effort to do real things so she wants to know that she did good and you need to let her know. Saying that “you are sorry IT didn’t work out is  laying the blame (if there is one) at randomness.  I think that IF you are discussing sex with conversation, then telling each other what really bothers you can help the other person avoid things and your concentration won’t be lost. My wife hates heavy cologne. otherwise her sinus reacts. If you are older then switching gears in your mind from news to sex might take longer than 15min. If you are both nude to start, it helps with the sexual mood.

    I once heard of a woman who was a homemaker and mopped the kitchen in the nude. It got her into thinking about sex. When he got home she was warmed up!

    on June 3, 2020.

    yes, review would be profitable….

    on June 3, 2020.
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      @Wheat – ”She feels like the pressure to push out of her comfort zone with sex is coming from you, because likely she would really like to just avoid the discomfort of facing the difficulties with her and sex.”  – there may be nothing said here that exemplifies my wife more than this. I don’t know how to get around it.

       I agree she needs to know that her words can hurt. But I have told her. She knows her mouth is the source of much trouble. It’s gotten her into trouble with others her entire life. I seriously doubt I can do or say anything to motivate her to change. Nothing to this point has ever worked.

      Perhaps that’s just a sidebar to the sex issue, but I’m not so sure the two aren’t connected. In fact, I’m certain they are. “for it is out of the abundance of the heart that the mouth speaks.” It all comes from within.

      On the floor Answered on June 2, 2020.

      @LBD I also could be cruel with my words and lash out.  I have sexual trauma in the past and the uncomfortable feelings would rise to such a point that I wasn’t responding in love.  I think they call it the monkey brain that gets turned on, and it’s all about emotions, and no logic.  You emotionally lash out and verbally throw up all over the person. It’s not ok.  I have had to go through a  healing process, including counseling to get to a different place.

      on June 2, 2020.

      I’ve tried to answer you several times. I’ll try one more time…

      I do not believe there is any trauma in her past. On the contrary, it is just her naturally confrontational personality. Change of most any kind is anathema to her. Her stubbornness is legendary, but so is her loyalty. She is also not a highly emotional person, or at least she won’t let you see it. To show much emotion is considered a weak vulnerability  in her mind. I think this has a lot to do with her unwillingness to “let go” sexually.

      Now, maybe, some of these things are loosening up. I simply want to avoid going the opposite direction. On a good note, I opted to let things go and did not further address it last night. The result was a nice time together. That is the ultimate goal 🙂

      on June 3, 2020.
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        Low drive, responsive wife here and former gatekeeper.  When you are trying to make that shift, I’m going to be honest, it feels weird, awkward, unnatural….like two sexual left feet.  The more successful times your wife has of sexually initiating, the more natural it will become, and the less abrupt.

        It often is to “fake it until you make it”, except most wives do not want to introduce anything fake into their marriage bed and will consequently, not fake arousal/enthusiasm.  The more I stepped out and made noises, moved my body, made seductive attempts at DH, the more natural it became….like waking up something dead deep inside me.  Sometimes my husband kindly lets me know he needs a little extra to be ready, because it was out of the blue.

        As far as the gross thing, when I was in the place of hating sex, everything about sex seemed gross, including my husband’s semen.  Sex was an inconvenience, and the mess of his semen was an inconvenience.  I’m not saying this is an appropriate viewpoint, I’m sharing my thoughts at the time.   I would take her actions as a sort of lashing out at you (not ok), because of the inner turmoil she is walking through.  It really isn’t about you…yet it definitely feels personal I’m sure.  She feels like the pressure to push out of her comfort zone with sex is coming from you, because likely she would really like to just avoid the discomfort of facing the difficulties with her and sex.  I’m sorry she is hurting you out of her hurt.

        I think you should tell her that those kind of comments hurt you.  Best done if you can stay calm and not react back, which is hard to do.

        Fell out of ... Answered on June 2, 2020.

        This is gold! Thanks for sharing.

        Yes, as with growing and learning a lot of things, putting things into practice can be awkward. Ever gone to a counselor and had them give you exercises or responses to try? BUT everyone has to start somewhere so grace and graciousness is important when someone is offering/trying something out of their comfort zone. (My DW was really uncomfortable at sexting or verbalizing anything on the phone but the more she practiced and experimented the easier and better she got just like you mentioned.)

        on June 2, 2020.

        She’s always thought of ejaculate as disgusting. Any body fluid really. It took her a long time to accept me using my own saliva as impromptu lubricant. I have to do it covertly even now. It has only been in the past year or so that she would kiss me after I went anywhere close to her genitals with my mouth. It just weird, and she admits it. So I don’t know how much hurt there is in play in that.
        There is certainly hurt in play with her feeling less than.  Probably more anger than hurt. And she has never responded well to pressure, of any kind. Gentle leading is difficult. But I know she is trying to expand her comfort zone. I don’t want to stifle her efforts.

        on June 2, 2020.

        …and thank you Wheat for the generous view from the other side. I appreciate that. I do know she is having some of those feelings. She’s told me as much.

        on June 2, 2020.
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          Sorry it turned out this way. 🙁  All of us can think of times when we should have done it differently. You’re not alone!

          It seems both of you have some issues that need more work. But, I can see that you both want things to improve! She made an effort. And you have done a thorough job of thinking it through what transpired. Both are commendable.

          The thought that came to mind is this: Often we let mistakes, failures, etc. define us or our spouse. There is ongoing danger in doing that. What should define us instead is, how we deal with them or fix them. They are sure to come until Jesus returns! If there is a way you two can talk about it calmly and without blaming, find a way to understand and affirm each other,  it might become a stepping stone toward another chance for a quickie!

          Under the stars Answered on June 2, 2020.

          I do not want this failure to define her at all, but I fear that is a consistent problem. She feels like she fails in this much more than succeeds. I’m sure I have been a contributor to that, and I want to avoid it. I remember distinctly thinking “i’m not really up for this, but I also don’t want to turn her down, she is trying, how can I honor that? If I turn it down, she will think she was wrong, if I can’t respond whole-heartedly, she’ll think I don’t really want her.”  I understand how a withdrawer, or LD spouse can feel. I want to figure out how to change these lose/lose situations into win/win. This just seems like a tougher than normal one. The “gross” thing just throws a monkey wrench into the system.

          on June 2, 2020.
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            A few random thoughts and I apologize if not helpful as I didn’t read your history:

            From your post and subsequent comments, she seems to say ‘gross’ a lot, which reminds me of a teenage girl. Is it possible she says that to cover embarrassment or not knowing what else to say? Like, maybe she felt embarrassed or shy when you mentioned basting her with icing? And maybe she didn’t know what else to say about your eyes? Regardless, I think it’s okay to tell her that you don’t like the word ‘gross’ and to please refrain from using it when you’re around. My husband hates the word ‘barf’ and asked me to not use it within our first month of dating. I haven’t used it since. I don’t think it’s a lot to ask of someone.

            What do you mean by knowing her motivation? Were you  feeling like she knew you weren’t in the mood and that it wasn’t going to happen, but she was looking for brownie points? I’m just getting that vibe from your description.

            I’m HD and it still hurts to be turned down for whatever reason and it doesn’t encourage me to initiate. Even though your wife and I differ in desire, I think the best way to handle situations like this is to explain why you’re not in the mood and then ask if a rain check with a specific time works.

            I think Wheat’s response was a good one in understanding the mind of your wife.

            On the floor Answered on June 2, 2020.

            It felt for her tone, from the way she stood at the bedside, the fact that this was just about the only thing she had said to me all morning,  and from precedence, that this was her trying to make sure she kept the box checked for sex. She knew we’d not for almost two days and she wanted to make sure I knew she wasn’t avoiding it. I say that because when she has been totally honest with me before in similar situations, that was her explanation. That’s NOT a totally offensive motivation. It does prove she cares what I think about sex and recognizes it’s importance to me. That’s why I didn’t say “nah, not interested.”

            I agree, your suggestion of a rain check might have been much better. I’m sure she’d be fine with that – because she was doing it just for me anyway. But I had no way to know the whole “gross” incident was coming, so I tried to honor her efforts instead. Now I’ve made a mess. Good thing is my DW is incredible, honestly incredible at forgiving and moving on like it never happened. MUCH better than I.

            on June 2, 2020.
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              So what could you have done differently?

              In my opinion, nothing. If I’m not in the mood, I’m not in the mood. Despite the frequent media portrayal of us men as always at the ready and jumping at the opportunity to drop our pants and have sex, at least I can certainly say I’m not like that. In fact, if anything turns me off, it’s obvious sexual advances, like provocative women. Of course that’s just me. But in that situation I would not have had the desire either. We are not sex robots that work at a push of a button.

              Revelling in grossities.. that’s interesting. I am not a psychologist, so I can’t only guess. But my experience is that at the bottom of any extreme is often the opposite extreme, like an outwardly feeling of repulsion can hide a suppressed feeling of attraction. So maybe your wife wants you to make her feel dirty (I guess that’s why some couples like to talk dirty).

              Fell out of ... Answered on June 2, 2020.

              I’d have to think long and hard on that one.  Yes, she revels in certain  grossities. But human things tend to cause the opposite response. I have shared for instance how at times I delight in her genital odor …. “GROSS!”  Who knows why someone finds some things distasteful or offensive and other things not.  But I don’t think, at first consideration, that she would want me to make her feel dirty. I’ll have to chew on that one. 

              Once, we had a little cooking /sex innuendo going on and I told her I was going to “baste her with some icing”. Her response? “GROSS, THAT”S DISGUSTING!” 

              And yes, your first words are correct. I even had some difficulty when she offered my sex fantasy the other day. 

              on June 2, 2020.

              “Despite the frequent media portrayal of us men as always at the ready and jumping at the opportunity to drop our pants and have sex, at least I can certainly say I’m not like that.” “We are not sex robots that work at a push of a button.”

              I think this is the hardest thing to convey to a LD spouse. Wifey will often make comments about how I am “always ready”, which in reality, I’m not. I often have to mentally push down my fatigue and frustrations to be able to enjoy what she is able to provide. Wifey has said she needs to feel wooed and romanced in order to feel connected to make love, a sentiment that is echoed loudly across sources of relationship advice/help sources. But heaven help the HD spouse who wants to be seduced and engaged by a spouse who celebrates their sexual nature.

              on June 2, 2020.

              If you’re not in the mood, ok…but what if your spouse is? Doesn’t she/he deserve the same consideration and gift of sex that you desire when you’re in the mood but your spouse isn’t? To me this is about loving your spouse well, even when I’m not in the mood (pretty rare) or tired (more likely) that I serve my spouse because she wants to make love and feel connected to me.

              on June 2, 2020.
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                We can’t know what was in her mind but I can say that many fights and disagreements start around unrealized expectations and then things spiral out of control from there.

                It sounds to me she went out of her way to show/demonstrate love by offering herself…and you rejected her for the reasons you stated. I know if I do that with my wife, she’ll be gun shy about offering herself again because she doesn’t like to put herself out there to be rejected. Many, if not most, women would not like that, especially when dealing with sex and you’ve said that she feels she can’t do anything right and now when she put herself out there, you said “no”. I can imagine her thinking, “he wants more sex and wants me to initiate, I’ll offer myself and what I can right now but that wasn’t good enough…so I’m not good enough…I’m not pretty enough…otherwise, he would accepted my offer. I don’t want to feel that pain again. I’m not gonna try that again.”

                As a post mid-century male, I understand that “quickies” are not always as quick as they once were, which can be a little frustrating when the clock is ticking. With that said, what would it have been like for you to respond, “Ok, but Mr. Wiggly’s gonna need a some help stepping up to the plate” or “Ok, but the little Colonel is gonna need some attention before he can stand and salute you.”?  This allows you to acknowledge her effort and be open to her initiation (which is what you want, correct?) and let her know that Mr. Happy is in need of warm up time.

                Also, maybe you aren’t “up” to perform at the time, ok. What about making it about focusing on the sexual connection? It sounds like you were focusing on having an orgasm rather than the sexual play between the two of you.   There are times when the DW and I try a quickie knowing an orgasm will probably not happen but my DW & I enjoy the sexual connection/union.  Other times it becomes just about foreplay between the two of us, which can later be used to start something in both of us for later and/or my wife says, “Maybe we can finish you up later”. This is will often happen if I use the time to bring her to O.  Of course, this can only happen if there’s a spirit of openness in the marriage and one’s spouse feels welcome to initiate.  Also, sometimes my wife offers knowing that I won’t be able to O but she knows it’s important to me and/or she just wants to feel close, to feel me inside her.

                Last thoughts, what do you want to encourage or foster in your marriage and how did your response to her facilitate your goal? How would you feel if you offered or asked and she responded the way you did?

                Under the stars Answered on June 2, 2020.

                Ok…I see where you’re going here. I don’t wholly disagree. I do totally agree with your first statements. In this situation though, I had no expectations. Maybe she did.

                I know if I do that with my wife, she’ll be gun shy about offering herself again because she doesn’t like to put herself out there to be rejected. – oh the irony… I don’t want to feel that pain again. I’m not gonna try that again.”…where have I heard that?

                I most certainly did not do any of this to prove any kind of point, but I wonder if the irony was totally lost on her? I see it in both directions.

                I’m not sure I can agree that I was just thinking about an orgasm this morning. If I had been, things would’ve gone a lot differently. She was freely offering that to me. I was working on honoring her in that. It was an ill-advised exclamation that turned the tide. Now I do admit I could have been a little more forward with my response, i.e. the whole “Mr. Wiggly needs attention” routine. But I never said no, never turned her down. I simply responded to an upsetting comment. THAT is what derailed the train, even if it was on shaky tracks to begin with.

                But to answer your very poignant final questions: I want to be desired and appreciated for my sexuality, responded to with enthusiasm and love, and not made to feel like I am just to be accommodated or tolerated sexually. Again, I never said no. I gave it a chance to evolve and stayed connected to her. I did perhaps overreact to an unexpected comment that too quickly brought up pain within myself.
                I have approached her that way, in that I have come up and said “hey, you wanna screw?” or similar. The answer is no, she doesn’t ever WANT to screw, but she might accommodate the idea if things are to her liking. If she were to say “well….maybe”, as I did, it would be a hopeful response, an open door. If she then invited me in for some close cuddle, as I did, then it would certainly be hopeful.

                Clearer communication is likely the overriding lesson here. I had that opportunity early on,  but chose to try to outthink the situation maybe.

                on June 2, 2020.

                Yes, I have overthought things many times as well as had expectations or wanted it to go a certain way and it didn’t and I stupidly said or did something that ended the potential moment. Since there’s two people involved, it doesn’t always happen the way I thought it would in my head and I say or act like the back end of a donkey and God forbid, had a “pity poor me” party. (Yeah, that’s attractive to a woman. (Strong sarcasm included!!!).

                I think that’s part of the trap and attraction for men to porn which creates ED, PE and impotence. one doesn’t have to interact emotionally or IRL with a woman and the relational dynamics of life, kids, relationships, stress, work, hormones etc, one can find whatever one wants. Then the brain becomes wired to respond physically in diminishing capacity to a 2D image whose sole purpose is to titilate rather than interact with a real person with real needs, thoughts and feelings.

                On top of that, as a male with my personality & history, I’m more likely to come back and initiate sex because right now, I have the higher drive, whereas my wife has a lot of ghosts from the past of rejection from her ex. Therefore, I have to be very sensitive about my response and what behavior I want to encourage.

                on June 2, 2020.
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                  It isn’t a sin to want your wife to want you. Reminds me of the classic Cheap Trick song, “I Want You to Want Me”

                  No, that’s not too much to expect from a wife.

                  Twin bed Answered on June 5, 2020.
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                    I get it. It’s the check it off the list attitude type of initiation. That’s likely what set you off on her gross comment. This is a bit of a tightrope because it is indeed her trying, but sometimes that just isn’t good enough. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be appreciative of the effort or focus on the fact that the LD spouse is hopefully doing it out of love. But the LD needs to face the fact that on occasion, no, that’s just not good enough right now.

                    Now, to answer the question, I have told my wife yes, “but I’m going to need a little help to get started.” She knows this is the polite way to say, “I need some oral attention, pronto.” 🙂

                    California King Answered on June 2, 2020.

                    Tim, maybe I missed something but I didn’t read that in her offer at all. He just said, she came and offered. (I do agree that I don’t want to feel like a check on DW’s to-do list and sometimes I know I am because DW’s hormones are shot to pieces BUT she offers anyway knowing that I need connection and/or release and she loves and wants to serve me. My DW doesn’t make me feel bad and I’ve learned to accept her offering as a loving gift. (And I DEFINITELY know what duty/pity sex is from my previous life/marriage. It wasn’t fun and like many others, I’d rather avoid it emotionally and go without sex that feel that way!  Thankfully, my DW is not that way!)

                    on June 2, 2020.

                    You are probably right, but based on my experience and my own feelings when I read, no kiss, no hug, matter-of-fact statement, and no movements from her I’m thinking this is an i’m doing this just for you type of session. Sometimes in my experience that is a turn off that I really have to try hard to push through. Of course, I’m viewing from my own lens of life with a LD, responsive only, inhibited, non touch love language woman.

                    on June 2, 2020.

                    Tim…you’re not married to my wife’s twin are you? (She doesn’t have one)

                    I’d say it was somewhere in between duty and a love offering. That’s why I was trying to get my mind in the right place and didn’t just brush her off. And yeah, “just for you” sex is ok oftentimes,  but no one wants a steady diet of it. It certainly didn’t turn me on this morning, even if it didn’t turn me completely off.

                    on June 2, 2020.
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                      Good thoughts to consider, thank you all.  🙏

                      I think I shall seek the opportunity this evening to  tell her how I am sorry again things went south. For my part, I wish I had not tried to over-think the situation and instead  told her “no baby, but thank you so much for offering. Let me hit you up on that later.” …or something along those lines. I don’t think I need to address the gross comment again. Not now anyway.

                      The downside is that she has in all likelihood gotten completely over it and would rather act like it never happened. My bringing it up in any way will only serve to bring up her presumed failure again. She ultimately just wants things to be good between us, wants to know that I’m happy with her. ANY discussion will blow that image. 

                      Don’t you just love the marriage dilemma?

                      On the floor Answered on June 2, 2020.
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                        Just curious: her collection of yucky things in jars and discussions of things she did–are these part of her profession? Could there by some sort of connection between all the things she is willing to look at/talk about in that they are about something she can fix or something “bad” that needs to be removed? I’m not a psychologist, but I know the brain can make weird connections. Try looking up online what might cause someone to be repulsed by the things she refers to as “gross” and what might draw someone to the things she looks at or talks about without a problem. Maybe there is some root issue that can be resolved that will automatically untangle the “gross” issue??

                        Under the stars Answered on June 3, 2020.

                        interesting thoughts to consider…

                        on June 3, 2020.
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