“Off the Table”

Answered

    About 2 years ago, my DW told me BJs were off the table. The reason she said it ” feels dirty,” adding “how clean can it be to have your stuff in my mouth?” She also added that “semen wasn’t created to go in mouths.” Perhaps she has a point, but we also don’t have any reason to believe it’s detrimental to one’s health.

    I will say, I appreciate that she was willing to give me reasons and share openly about it. Within our first several years of marriage, she would instantly shutdown conversations around sex and would not delve into details. Despite the “off the table” stuff, my dear bride has opened up the past 2 years and I truly appreciate and celebrate this growth.

    More background, DW has never enjoyed giving OS, nor does she particularly enjoy receiving. I have been able to convince her to let me give her OS on occasion. She doesn’t like to kiss after because she is repulsed by her own scent. Last time was 1 year ago. She enjoyed it in the moment and I was able to to bring her to climax for the first time from OS during that encounter last year. She enjoyed it more than she’d thought she would and more than in times past. But the next day she admitted that right or wrong, she just felt “like it’s kinda dirty,” and she said it makes her feel dirty (I believe she meant more in a “kinky” sense of the word).

    I brought up the topic of BJs one time within the past couple years and the conversation was shut down pretty quickly as she reminded me it is indeed still off the table. To which I replied, “Do you think it will be off the table for the duration of our marriage/the rest our lives?” To which she replied, “I’m not sure. Maybe not.”

    I would love feedback. I’m always down for biblical and gospel centered encouragement. Also, anything that you took off the table or had taken off the table in the past or present?

     

    Queen bed Asked on September 25, 2020 in Oral Sex.
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    26 Answer(s)
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      @PK (and @SC before that):

      Many of us have never asked for OS in any situation except freshly showered. Plus some of us don’t “dangle” low enough to have the splash problem anyway. And there are plenty of ways to give OS without touching/enveloping the urethra.

      While I’m certainly not denying some women will have a germ-based mental block, for many of them that’s not the issue. I think the below article hits on a lot of the reasons that Christian women don’t like fellatio, and only one of them (out of 9) involves grossness:

      Oral Sex and the Christian Wives Who Love Giving It

      On secular forums I’ve read on the subject, I don’t know if I’ve ever seen the “gross” thing be a reason for it except for the finishing part. The finishing part is indeed a common reason I’ve seen for objecting to it, and totally understandable too. A freshly washed penis should be little different from a freshly washed vulva and be at least as clean as one’s mouth.

      -Scott

      Under the stars Answered on September 25, 2020.

      My comment was in reply to the “logic” of how other things are dirty. I have a feeling that the “gross” part is a fairly common reason, I can’t imagine that it wouldn’t be, especially among those who are more OCD in nature (which WAS me.) And to use your reasoning about a freshly washed vulva, some women still struggle believing that the vulva is “dirty”….at times, the only reason they allow cunnilingus, is because they choose to trust their husband that it’s something they desire no matter what it’s like.

      on September 25, 2020.

      @Scott, thanks for the link.

      on September 25, 2020.

      I feel my “logic” might have been misunderstood. I should have been more clear. (Not sure I can do any better, now either. :D) While somethings might be dirty at one point, when well washed they are no longer so – except perhaps in the mind (Which would vary greatly from person to person and situation to situation).

      It can be seen as ironic, that some people rarely think of where certain food products have come from or that they may have been fertilized with animal manure or chemicals that we wouldn’t readily ingest. Yet, other naturally produced body fluids, no matter how clean we make things, are perpetually dirty.

      on September 25, 2020.

      OWM – I could ruin a lot of people’s day with your last paragraph…. but I won’t. 🙂

      …and it would only be ruined because of their faulty preconceived notions about where their food comes from. Nothing problematic, just people’s general ignorance of such things. Emotional sensitivities are luxuries of the well-fed.

      on September 26, 2020.
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        “Passion Pursuit” by Linda Dillow and Dr. Juli Slattery, would be a good study for her. They really cover what God says and feels about sex, and deals with those kind of wrong messages. The Forgiven Wife has hosted this study online, in the spring and fall.

        In our marriage, we did almost everything in the beginning. And then slowly things were taken off of the table, for various reasons, including sex all together for the most part, other than TTC. This lasted for years. Ten years into our marriage, sex was brought back in. Eight years after that, we were going to work on our marriage, a 90 day plan. I asked again for sex to be completely taken off of the table, because I knew that if it wasn’t, I would doubt his motive and intentions. I ended that deal after 6 weeks. A little over a year later, EVERYTHING was back on the table (18.5 yrs married), we celebrated our 26th this year. Now in this time of everything being on the table, there are times we have had to say, “not now” to certain things, but it’s not because of wrong thinking or false beliefs, it’s because it was what was best for us.

        Under the stars Answered on September 25, 2020.
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          I have never found giving OS to be unclean. I enjoy giving and often find myself craving the smell and taste. Idk if that’s because I’m HD or sex positive or what.
          HOWEVER, DH assured there would be reciprocation after we were married and that was not the case which left me feeling like I must have a bad odor or taste. About 15 years into our marriage I purchased the book She Comes First. It sat dusty on the shelf for a while and through various conversations and marked pages things have improved. Frequency of any form of sex is a struggle for us and this is no different. I do know that it is uncomfortable for his neck and that he enjoys it more since laser hair removal.
          As a psychology student, I can tell you that the “toilet” example is not all that far fetched. Also, repressed memories are often a reason for avoiding certain things. Many people do not know why they about things, but the brain has been wired because of something that likely occurred between the ages of 13-19.
          My only suggestion is that you keep the conversations open even if the fulfillment is off the table and like other posters said, be appreciative of what you are giving and receiving.

          King bed Answered on September 28, 2020.

          MY DW’s uncontrollable aversion to insects came about when she was in high school and her bedroom was in the basement of their house. One morning she woke up with a camel cricket on her chest. Upstairs they thought someone was murdering her. If one of those hops across her path now, she’ll run you over going the other way! I’m surprised she didn’t set the house on fire to rid it of the camel crickets….

          Don’t know where her aversion to semen came from – as mine was the first and only penis she has ever seen (human and in person that is). It’s just one of those unexplainable things.

          on September 28, 2020.

          YES on the repressed memories thing!  I couldn’t handle manual stimulation of my clitoris for the first 8 years of marriage and didn’t know it was because of repressed memories of childhood sexual abuse!  For me this was much earlier though, 5-6 years old.

          on September 28, 2020.

          “As a psychology student, I can tell you that the “toilet” example is not all that far fetched. ”

          Thanks! So I am not that crazy after all! 😉

          on September 28, 2020.
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            I feel your pain.  Oral both ways was an “occasional treat” – maybe 5-6X a year until about 6 yrs ago when DW stopped allowing it or participating in it.  At least you got an explanation…. all I get is “I love you but don’t want to do that any more…”  for an explanation.  She used to O when I’d sample her wares…  and when I press the point it shuts all LM down.

            I am thankful she’s almost always willing, and sometime eager for PIV.  But I’d like more than vanilla to be on the menu.

            P.S. – my erections were much firmer when I went down on her… a testimony to the power of her pheromones on me.  I love her taste and smell but she’s always been a clean freak even back when she allowed it….

            On the floor Answered on September 25, 2020.

            Thanks for sharing JLH. My DW’s pheromones are one of the biggest highlights of that experience. It brings in each of the 5 senses and is a tremendous blessing from our creative Heavenly Father!

            on September 25, 2020.

            I was the same way when we had some oral sex, I would get super excited giving her oral sex.

            on September 26, 2020.
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              In society at large, there is a feeling amongst women that you are being “used” when you give a BJ.  I grew up as a non-Christian, so it wasn’t about morality. Sex was viewed as more romantic, serious, etc…BJs were things in porn, things hookers did, and something slutty girls did.  Semen is messy, it does not taste good, and for those with a strong gag reflex (raises hand), it can make you feel like you are going to throw up…..not sexy.  Most women will grow up with this kind of messaging coming to them from other girls/women, but it is also in movies.  In movies and books the slutty girls are the ones that give BJs, the girls that end up with the guy usually have PIV with the guy.
              Giving a BJ is also hard work.  Your mouth gets sore, and if the guy gets a bit aggressive it becomes very unfun.  If the woman is concerned the man will become aggressive it can becomes something she will be resentful about.  If he is hung up on OS because of porn, she will most definitely hate OS

              Now that is just all the culture stuff; I do believe we need to serve our spouse in bed and work to get past bad stuff the world has sowed into our thinking.  I give my DH BJs, I let him finish in my mouth on occasion and just spit it out.  I do not like swallowing and the few times I did, it ruined the rest of sex for me.  I give BJs because I love my husband and he doesn’t pressure me.  He doesn’t demand and he doesn’t get pushy.  It took a good 15 years for me to work past the feeling of being used when performing OS. I still find it a particularly difficult thing to do physically, and it is not my favorite thing

              OS is something to wade into slowly and lovingly   I personally struggle with the idea of taking it completely off the table, except very specific instances   I think we need to pray and work through our wrong thinking about it and instead get to a place of wanting to love and please our spouse  I don’t think that means every woman needs to deep throat and swallow  I’m not a big fan of double standards and DH loves to give me OS, so I want to reciprocate as well

              As a woman I remember first being shy and self conscious about receiving and worried I smelled bad.  My partner was able to easily convince me he felt differently though and then it wasn’t a big deal to me. I had OS with my first fiancé, so my husband was not the first man to experience that with.  DH was very enthusiastic about giving me OS and so it has been part of our sexual relationship for its entirety

              As far as hygiene…yes, all should be clean  I would buy a pack of baby wipes and make cleaning one another part of the foreplay   Coconut oil also makes everything smell good and taste like coconut, which can help get over some mental blocks

               

              On the floor Answered on September 27, 2020.

              Wheat48, thanks for sharing and your vulnerability and honesty.

              I also appreciate your attitude and willingness to work through your thinking to want to love and bless your spouse and the encouragement you give for others to do the same. Many spouse aren’t willing to and make unilateral decisions and that’s not fair. Your husband is a blessed man!!!

              on September 27, 2020.

              Ditto!

               

              on September 28, 2020.
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                Please continue to be patient with your DW.  It is good to listen to her reasons and try to be understanding. Hopefully she will come to realize  what is behind her resistance, so that you both can work at overcoming it in loving and constructive ways. Or if it is just resistance.

                This got me thinking of other things. Probably not good to go here with your DW.  But here are some of the thoughts that came to mind:

                Feels dirty, huh?

                Yes, I feel kind of dirty being in the shopping malls these days. Who knows how many people out there have COVID or something worse? So, should I tell DW that shopping is off the table? Besides, biblically speaking, I can’t find evidence that God created us for shopping – in big malls or online!

                Or, if earlier in the day I have changed my grandchild’s stinky diaper, are my fingers off the table for eating? And for how long?

                We put all kinds of things in our mouths – like vegetables that were in the dirt, no less. Or eggs, not to mention where they came out of.

                Under the stars Answered on September 25, 2020.

                I love your encouragement and will take it to heart. I asked here because it has come up in my mind again recently and I thought I would bring it before this community of believers before putting any undue pressure on my dear bride again. Also, she has been sick for several weeks, so it would not be loving or kind of me to share now 🙂 More thinking for down the road when she is well again.

                Also, great points about the other things we consider dirty, yet do not take off the table. I am confident I could navigate that conversation with love. Thank you!

                on September 25, 2020.

                OWM, I love your analogies…. very good logic.  But my DW is often more emotional than logical as is the case regarding OS.  I’d rather have her without OS than anyone else who would treat me every day….  That doesn’t mean that I accept the status quo as permanent and am trusting God to make it happen again for us in His time.

                on September 25, 2020.

                statistically 40% have covid, of those who are positive, less than 10% have any symptoms and less than 3% of those can cough or breathe on you and give it to you just by sharing the air. But only .03% will die. Are we really going to talk about the chances of disease?

                on September 26, 2020.

                …eggs…. 😆 😆 😆 Yep, they come out of a chicken’s butt…

                on September 26, 2020.
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                  I can relate to her feelings. I didn’t understand why, early in our marriage, DH wanted that. I would oblige him with a little bit of oral but at the first sign of pre-ejaculate I was cringing and done.
                  He enjoyed giving me oral but I couldn’t relax enough to enjoy it, I just felt like it was gross and I was embarrassed. I’ve begun to change my thinking (though I still don’t want to taste seminal fluids). I would say continue to talk to her and her know how common a thing for couples(not just porn), and that men can come to enjoy their DW’s scent/taste. But then agree to allow her as much time as she feels she needs to shower/clean up before planned or requested OS.

                  Hammock Answered on September 25, 2020.

                  you ARE married right? Embarrassed by what? I watched my wife’s implantation of my sperm specimen during in vitro! The doctor had me sit looking into her vulva! Awesome!

                  on September 26, 2020.

                  @CJ please read over my posts more carefully before responding sarcastically and totally missing the essence of my response. It’s getting old.

                  on September 28, 2020.

                  sorry

                   

                  on September 30, 2020.
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                    One reason that hasn’t been mentioned in the comments on this topic as to why it might be on before and early in marriage and removed, especially after marriage, many couples may engage in it and later remove it because the woman may have felt pressure to do it to keep the relationship, preserve her “technical” virginity, etc. Once marriage has occurred, the pressure to keep/get the man is over, PIV is now on the table, and maybe it was not liked before and now that the marriage is complete, the need/desire is no longer felt and/or the guilt from premarital sex is still there and OS is a reminder of that behavior…or a reminder of feeling trapped from poor choices

                    it’s some of the same reasons seen when couples, especially women, who engage in premarital sex remove regular sexual encounters from the MB menu getting married.

                    One last reason I’ve seen is that women experience a lack of respect for their now husband for his lack of leadership, caring for and protection of her virginity before marriage, and then she feels used by him for his pleasure. This seems to be amplified when she rarely or never orgasmed so it was all about his release and habits & patterns in their MB were set.

                    Under the stars Answered on September 27, 2020.

                    I quickly mentioned this in a comment under a @Scott answer, but we could have been typing at the same time. I have experienced, at least in part, both things you mentioned.

                    on September 27, 2020.

                    This scenario has happened but want to point out many gals also participate in not preserving the GUYS virginity!  In fact in my experience many of the gals!  In addition, why is the woman in this story trying to get / keep her man?  Seems a definite wrong thrust so the whole relationship tainted from the get go!  Make sure you are right and striving to get keep is not generally  the ace card is it?

                    The media thrust was for the woman to orgasm fifty years ago why is this woman after a guy that has no clue? Respect is one of those the rest of the story items or more to the story items even if there was uncomfortableness for oral the real issue may be the respect in marriage.

                    And before and or after the marriage what is it that jumps out for me in this story. They are not on the same page at all and lack the communication skills or maturity to address it. Sounds familiar. Has little to do with “oral not something good girls do” at all! 

                    on September 28, 2020.

                    Yes, Tracker, communication is critical to relationships to set & understand expectations, goals, continue development and change of an individual and the relationship as time goes on. I also agree that there are gals who also participate and may eagerly try to to preserve a guy’s virginity. I’m referring more to a spiritual leadership standpoint that as a man, the responsibility has been place on me to lead and protect the one I was dating and am now married to.

                    Sadly, I didn’t do that well in my first marriage and while still a PIV virgin, I didn’t lead well in the rest. That created problems in the relationship after marriage, emotionally, spiritually and in the bedroom.

                    When current DW & I dated, neither of us were going to make the same mistakes like dating leading to our previous marriages. As we got closer, we had to create other boundaries to help. Yes, there were several times where I could’ve pushed through and taken what we both wanted to do/give. Doing so, would’ve destroyed DW’s respect for me and I don’t think she would’ve married me. I wouldn’t have wanted to marry her out of fear of my last marriage. On top of that, we both would have lost our jobs.

                    on September 28, 2020.
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                      I agree with @Momof5. I struggle with this very thing because of childhood abuse. Sometimes I can give OS, if the stars align, and I enjoy can it, but it’s rare. DH is very understanding.

                      Double bed Answered on September 28, 2020.

                      Embrace those moments. From my studies it seems those are the times when you are most “whole” and are creating new neuro pathways for healing!

                      on September 28, 2020.
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                        @Scott, interesting hypothesis! I don’t personally find it gross, but I do understand how some women would find it gross the older they get. When I was 20, the idea that the penis was covered in bacteria, etc. never crossed my mind. Maybe because I had no interest in medical or science topics at the time? After having kids, I now know way too much about diseases, fecal matter, etc. just because kids make you more aware (I seemed to have sick kids all the time and walked around with a can of Lysol all winter). So, I can see where that awareness and concern could carry over into the bedroom.

                        On the floor Answered on September 28, 2020.

                        Totally agree! Not only does personal awareness happen, but look at the awareness as a whole in society that has happened. We now know water fountains are some of the germiest places. We have those shows that lights up all the bodily fluids in a hotel room. We know that by making your bed, you actually make it more likely to have dust mites in your bed. And if you look at your eyebrows and eyelashes microscopically, some would be horrified as what we find. If someone doesn’t know how to handle and work through that information, they could be imprisoned by fear.

                        on September 28, 2020.
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