Pervert or no

    I don’t see a category so I guess nota is appropriate.

    My wife and I got into a somewhat heated debate this afternoon over a situation that didn’t involve any of us directly – her, I, nor our kids. A friend of ours 16 yo daughter who is a close friend of our daughter, broke up with her 15 yo boyfriend today. Apparently he asked her for a nude photo a couple days ago and she turned him down then decided it was over. Good for her, we all agree on that. The debate came when my wife started going off on the kid calling him a “sick pervert” and the like. I disagreed with her designation and harsh judgment of the boy and told her so. WOW did she get fired up. I told her it was not perverted for a pubescent boy to want to see a girl naked. It was wrong for him to ask. It was a sign of poor parenting perhaps. It was certainly a relationship ending infraction. I said I believed the only thing better would have been for the girl to punch him in the nose when he asked then told him to take a hike. But she is a better girl than that. She refused strongly, forgave him but ended the relationship after she told her father (who related the whole story to me.) Anyway, my wife persisted that anybody that would do that IS A PERVERT. I said no, if he had asked to see (a very skewed picture), that would be perverted, but he is just a boy that needs some discipline.  It got hot – mostly she got hot. I was fairly calm and convinced in my position. Honestly, if the same thing happened to my daughter, I would expect her to kick him in the nads, and I might “share some thoughts” with him, but I would not judge him harshly as a pervert.

    so I pose the question: pervert or no? I halfway expect a gender division in the answers but we’ll see….

    On the floor Asked on July 1, 2019 in None of The Above.
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    15 Answer(s)

      This is what I have been wondering:  If the girl had, as a baptized Christian girl, fallen prey to sin (from which no one, even a mature Christian, but especially a young one, is immune) and sent the picture, would anyone call HER a pervert? Or a believer who should be lovingly restored? (“Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path…” Galatians 6:1)

      Even the godliest kids of the godliest parents can find themselves deceived or tempted and suddenly realize they have been caught in a web of sin.

      I have a daughter. And she had a deeply painful experience at the hands of a boy who was supposed to be a Christian and he ended up asking her for pictures he shouldn’t have. My inner Mama Bear has done a fair amount of growling and snarling about him, but every now and then the Holy Spirit reminds me that whatever the true state of his faith while they were a couple, he is, like all of us, a sinner in need of a Savior. He was deceived by Satan/the world into thinking that was an okay thing to do, that the way he treated my daughter was okay. He was wrong. He hurt my daughter deeply. But God loves him and wants to heal him just as much as he loves my daughter and wants to heal her. That is a HARD pill for a Mama Bear to swallow! I’m left with claws and teeth all sharpened up and no one to shred.

      And yet, having given this a lot of thought, I can’t say I think he is a pervert.  He’s just a big bundle of hormones suddenly extremely aware of girls and how they affect his body. In other words, he’s a teenage boy. (Not an excuse not to control himself, and I WOULD still like to smack him…but I won’t.)

      Under the stars Answered on July 3, 2019.

      thank you D for that honest yet graceful answer. I agree 100%

      on July 4, 2019.
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        It is not perverted for a man to desire to see a naked woman. Its basic biology. What is perverted is acting on that desire outside of the marital relationship, which is what this kid did. In other words the action was perverted, not the desire

        On the floor Answered on July 1, 2019.

        The issue wasn’t about the behavior or the desire.  It was about applying a label to someone who was acting out a normal desire.  Yes,  it was wrong,  but as SoA pointed out,  it is probably equally wrong to attach a label to the kid.

        on July 1, 2019.

        Pervert:

        verb: (to)alter (something) from its original course, meaning, or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended.

        noun: a person whose sexual behavior is regarded as abnormal and unacceptable.

        Asking a girl who is not his wife for a nude photo is a perverted action. Yes, it is not seen as particularly abnormal in the culture we are in but it is most definitely perverted. Is calling the kid a pervert the best way to go forward? Probably not, but it shouldn’t just be shrugged off as if this is normal and acceptable behavior either. ( not that I think anyone here is arguing that)

        The broader culture says, “Boys will be boys” to excuse some pretty heinous stuff. We have to be careful to call a spade a spade. A young man needs to be taught to have respect for members of the opposite sex and that while it is normal and not perverted to feel sexual attraction for them sexual expression is reserved solely for the marriage bed.

        on July 1, 2019.

        And I am not arguing against any of that.  What I am saying is that the label is not the right approach.  We all sin,  but we are all created in Gods image as well.  Which is the most edifying way forward.

        Let me put it another way.   When it is someone elses son,  it is obvious that he is a filthy pervert,  but what if it is your son?

        Nobody is coming close to saying that you can’t or shouldn’t call sin sin, or that we shouldn’t call sinners sinners, but to call a 16 year old boy a filthy pervert for following his natural, God given urges, is to pervert the meaning of the word pervert.  It is misplaced,  it is wrong, but it is also 100 percent normal.

        Peace

        on July 2, 2019.

        Why separate the sin from the boy?  We are the summary of our actions.  The action does not exist apart from the boy.  If the boy’s parents will not teach him then it is the responsibility of the society around him to step up and call it what it is, an act of perversion.  Love him, offer him grace and turn this offense over to the police.

        on July 2, 2019.
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          Here’s a concern of mine, that is a little off from the original question…. I would probably have a strong defensive reaction like LBD. I am a natural defender of others. But, I also think of what such a strong opinion is doing to those she loves. If the daughter or LBD is anything like me, they take in all this information and store it and use it to process life and decisions. One day, or maybe even this day, one struggles with porn or she has looked at nude photos herself….she, or they, are now “perverts” and with the vehemence of mom, it may sound unforgivable. Or, the daughter gets married. Her new husband has a struggle with porn, like so many young people do… now, how will she perceive her husband? As a pervert. Is that respectable, can she submit and honor such a man? What about how she should react to such a situation? If she reacts how mom reacts, she has lost grace and became an unsafe place for her husband to show his weaknesses and to be honest.

          To me, this is far more than whether a kid is a pervert or not, if I was to rise up in defense and fight against that attitude, it would be for the health of my own family and my future generations, plus for the Church in general. These attitudes within the church is what keep the lost and broken away.

          Under the stars Answered on July 2, 2019.

          Agree all the way around. Luckily there was no one else around to spectate our discussion. I’ve yet to discuss the situation with my daughter. She and her friend had dinner together last night so I’m sure this topic was discussed. I want the chance to debrief her on it myself. I will be emphasizing grace coupled with intelligent reactions to similar situations.

          on July 2, 2019.

          We talked further and in her words, it was a basal “mama bear reaction.”

          on July 4, 2019.
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            No, of course not a pervert.  To me, a pervert is one who has ABNORMAL sexual behavior.  And to tell that boy that would be as wrong as he asking the girl for a nude photo.

            He definitely should be reprimanded and be taught to respect girls and women and that sexuality should be kept between a husband and a wife. I truly hope whoever his next girlfriend is is as moral as your daughters friend!

            (oh, i’m female)

            Blanket on a secluded beach! Answered on July 1, 2019.

            It is abnormal to look with lust on a woman who is not your wife. It is a departure from God’s intent. Therefore, at.least in that narrow way, perveted.

            on July 2, 2019.

            It is sinful because it is a departure from God’s intent; not abnormal or perverted. Christ is the only one without sin, so all those who sin are by definition “normal”.  Normal is sometimes something we are asked to fight against in order to please God.

            on July 2, 2019.

            All true norms are God’s intent. The straight path is normal. The crooked path is wide, but it leads to destruction
            Sin may be common, even ubiquitous, but it is not normal. Our tendency is to see perversion as doing something worse than I would do. We need a higher standard.

            on July 3, 2019.
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              I tend to agree with you, the desire to see a naked woman is not perverted. However, the act of getting those images at such a young age could cause a perversion where he is only attracted to minors.

              Queen bed Answered on July 1, 2019.

              That, sir,  is a very long stretch.  I saw my first nude pic at around 13.  The image is still perfectly clear in my mind.  I could describe her features and her pose in detail.  I am also not at all drawn to that “type”.

              The truth is that because of porn,  most boys first view of a nude woman is probably someone twice their age.

              on July 2, 2019.
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                It sounds like semantics.  Obviously it’s sin but does it need a title? I wouldn’t be comfortable with name-calling.

                Her anger & defensiveness sounds like something that has to be dealt with on a deeper level, finding more joy and peace.

                Queen bed Answered on July 2, 2019.
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                  No, I wouldn’t call him that. I’m glad the girl had the strength to do the right thing.

                  I’d be curious to know what was behind LBD’s DW’s strong reaction.

                  Many of us do not react to sin around us or within us as we should. We are quite accommodating. Yet, even if we have some righteous indignation toward sin, it is helpful to be able to explain why we feel that or why we respond as strongly as we do. As has been noted, we all sin, yes, much more than we should. So, if our reaction to sin is so strong and is lacking in understanding and grace, are we the type of people that would forgive as we have been forgiven? And will those around us be free to confess their sins to us, if they fear such a strong reaction to sin?

                  Under the stars Answered on July 2, 2019.

                  I can understand why she did, it’s that momma’s protective instinct. I would have wanted to do that as well, and in my more immature years, I would have, or much worse.

                  on July 2, 2019.
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                    I keep having a thought: is it the photo aspect that leans some toward  “pervert”? I say that because I know that when I was 15, though I had no electronic device like today, I would have done just about anything to see a live nude woman. In just a few shorts months later at 16, I did. And a lot more than just see her. No I didn’t ask to have pics sent, I just asked to see. Anybody ever play doctor? “You show me yours, I’ll show you mine?”

                    My point is that kids haven’t changed, just the paraphernalia and access points and methods. We’re we perverts back then? I think not. I was a sinner, ignorant of the truth and ignorant of the consequences of my actions. I wish I knew what I know now,  when I was younger.

                    I hope this will in fact be a positive turning point in this boy’s life. I’ll check in with my friend later to see if he made contact with the parent/s. But I also know that IF someone had known what I was doing when I was 16, and had they approached me with “you pervert!”, they would have been dismissed and ignored. It would have likely poured fuel on the fire. i don’t know the boy in question though.

                     

                    On the floor Answered on July 2, 2019.
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                      I agree with your take on it and SoA. I see a sinner in need of a Savior.

                      Under the stars Answered on July 1, 2019.
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                        The arguement between my wife and I got heated when I called attention to judgmentalism.

                        I can hear those standing around with stones in their hands calling out “Whore! Slut! Adulterous wretch!” as Jesus kneeled in silence drawing in the dirt.

                        in my opinion, age makes a lot of difference in this particular situation. In my opinion, if anyone deserves harsh judgement, it might be this child’s parents, though I know nothing of them so I could be wrong in any judgement there as well. In any regard, judgement need be restricted to actions taken or not. No man can accurately judge another’s heart. Certainly not based on a single action.

                        if anyone learns anything from this, I want it to be my daughter. I plan to have that discussion again at the first opportunity (probably alone.) When we have asked her in the past if anything like this has ever happened, she said not. She also said she figures most boys are afraid of her and know not to think about it. Good girl!

                        I did not grow up in this electronic age and can only imagine what it could be like for a pubescent boy. I do remember my own “awakening” of sexual nature and the voraciousness with which I sought to feed the beast that suddenly showed up in me. I had no father to guide me properly in love. I think this young boy in question may be in a similar situation. Either way, I hope he gets some guidance soon. It may be that the father of the girl makes contact with the parent/s of the boy. It will be in love and concern for he is not angry at the boy, at least not  that I saw.  I am going to encourage him to do so.

                        On the floor Answered on July 2, 2019.
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