What does submission look like for you?

    Since we’re pulling out the touchy subjects in our discussions this week, I thought I’d ask something that I need wise counsel on. What does submission look like in your marriage, in concrete ways?

    I had a terrible example in my parents, who clashed a lot through most of my childhood. My in-laws are worse – MIL is the definition of a doormat, and FIL is unquestionably an abuser. His actions have left lasting consequences for his wife and both his sons.

    So these are the experiences my husband and I brought to the table. We’ve got an unbelieving husband who desperately wants to lead but also is scared to cross his father’s line. And a Christian wife who learned that submission is wrong. We’re also both Type A people who were initially attracted to each other because of how mentally strong we both are.

    But I’m Christian and am called to something else in marriage. I believe that my submission will bless both of us. I’m just still trying to figure out what that looks like, since I’ve had no examples.

    Blanket on a secluded beach! Asked on December 24, 2019 in Marriage Roles, Headship/Submission, Unsaved .
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    14 Answer(s)

      Not only do I seek to submit to DW, I also seek to be such a DH that it is easier for her to submit to me willingly and feely – not out of force or compulsion. So, I try not to be bossy or controlling. Rather I listen to her ideas and suggestions and then try to implement them.

      When I have strong convictions about something or considerable assurance that a particular way forward is what God is calling us to do, I don’t play the trump card and say that I’m the head of the home or that God told me to do this! Instead, I get her to talk and share what she is thinking and see if I can find areas in which what she brings up correspond to what I think we should do and then express agreement in those areas. Then in the areas of disparity or disagreement, I ask exploratory questions, discuss things, and then offer what I think should be done as another option.  When she is open to direction, I explain what, through prayer and discernment, I sense that God is calling us to do.

      For me, submission is mutual submission. It is yielding first to Christ and then to each other.  I believe my role is more of one of responsibility than it is of authority.

      I’ll have to think about this more before I give a fuller answer.

      Under the stars Answered on December 24, 2019.
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        Like someone mentioned, my husband and I are also a team. I run the household, he runs the business. We discuss both, and neither is exempt from suggestions from the other. My hubby ran his business plan for next year, past me the other day. I said whatever he decided was great with me. It didn’t really matter to me. But he felt I didn’t care enough. So, that’s a nice suggestion for me to learn on how to care more about his stuff.

        Its easy for me to take over, if I let myself. Its easy for him to let me make the decisions. Its something we work on together. But, its also very nice for us to each have our own jurisdiction in which to operate.

        I don’t think its for a husband to tell his wife, that she needs to submit. Rather, I think as he leads to the best of his knowledge, his wife will lead. If a marriage is at that point, where the husband feels he needs to keep reminding his wife to submit, there is something that he needs to look at, in his heart.

        I grew up with a controlling father and a door mat mother. DH had a controlling father, who felt he did everything just right, and a super controlling sister. So, those are our dynamics to work with.

        I find if I back off, its easier, or maybe more pressing!, for DH to step and take the lead.

        Under the stars Answered on December 24, 2019.

        Oh dear. Another mistake! I mean if the husband leads to the best of his knowledge, his wife will follow.

        on December 24, 2019.

        Brynna, I think there is an edit button that allows you to edit your post to fix a mistake – I know I use it a lot!

        on December 24, 2019.

        On an Android phone?

        on December 24, 2019.

        No edit feature on a phone.

        on December 24, 2019.

        Ok thanks, SC. I didn’t think there was. I only have mobile access to this site.

        on December 24, 2019.

        I, too, only have mobile access. I miss the edit function!

        on December 25, 2019.
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          @sd595 I have seen Ephesians 5:21 be taken very far out of context, giving the wife equal authority over the husband. I do not agree with this interpretation. However, after careful study and consideration, nor do I agree with the interpretation that presumes it was talking about only men vs men etc.

          First, from a purely literary standpoint, Paul was not writing to subsets of people in that portion of his letter. He was writing to an entire church that scholars think may have extended beyond Ephesus. Paul gives very specific instructions in the next section to identifiable subsets of the church (wives, husbands, servants, etc). There is no such specificity of audience in the section that ends with 5:21. That seems an odd writing style if he meant 5:21 to be geared toward subsets of society. Why not identify his target audience in those verses if he weren’t writing to the church as a whole? He clearly had no qualms about doing so elsewhere. He tended to be quite clear in his writing when he needed to be.

          Remember that he was writing to new believers who needed things to be clearly identified. We don’t need to read things into his works. He’s pretty blatant. Putting the subset theory into 5:21 runs counter to how the rest of Paul’s works are written.

          Second, 5:21 is generally regarded, even by many well educated patriarchal pastors including my own, to be an overarching verse that transitions to the next section. We are all to submit to one another, and next comes a list of how each group of people needs to submit to each other. It does not negate the hierarchy that follows. Submission to each other simply looks different for each group of people. There is no confusion or lack of sense here.

          For example, Paul emphasizes that husbands must love their wives, to cleanse their wives as Christ did with the church. That is the image that is conveyed – servant leadership. That concept is very much one of submission.

          In the most literal sense, Christ got on his knees before his subordinates and washed their feet. Imagine the humility… the submission… not just to his Father, but to his disciples. He changed cultural norms of a Rabbi, and submitted himself to the needs of his followers. Not to their desires, but to their needs. The next day, he took that to the most extreme level imaginable.

          Submission comes in many forms. 5:21 is submission in a broad sense. The verses that follow more clearly define God’s expectations for submission of both women and men in various cases. For the husband, submission looks like servant leadership. The definition of servant leadership literally matches what Christ did for the church in his ministry.

          It’s looking at your wife, understanding her, and giving her what she needs to grow. It might involve a great deal of change on the husband’s part, so that he may learn to be the leader not that he *thinks* she needs, but what she actually does need.

          And believe me, I do not envy you husbands. As my pastor is wont to say at weddings, husbands have the toughest job. I am a servant leader in my career, and I’ve taught principles of servant leadership at leadership trainings (which is why I am currently on a quest to learn to be submissive in the home). Servant leadership is not easy. It very much is changing what you might have planned to meet the needs of someone else because you are responsible for their growth. It would be easier to just boss someone around. But that isn’t how you encourage growth. If being that servant leader isn’t a powerful form of submission, then I don’t know what is.

          Blanket on a secluded beach! Answered on December 26, 2019.
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            Sd595’s narrow interpretation is not mainstream theology about submission men to men and women to women, kids, etc . I as the man, lead in the house, SUBMIT myself to my wife but submitting my needs to my wife in order to love and serve her. She submits to me by letting me lead…BUT that comes at a price to me, if I lead poorly, God has a higher standard for me to lead and uphold. Servant leadership is the example we see in Ephesians and SUBMITTING to one another is what we’re called to do…and we BOTH can and should call out sin in each other as Scripture also instructs us to “spur each other to good works” and “gently restore one another” when sin is present. I’ve seen too many people sadly interpret this as the man is the boss and the woman should just be silent and not call out poor, sinful  behavior. This has led to great abuses in the church and family.

            Under the stars Answered on December 26, 2019.
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              I love to hear “but I’m a Christian and am called.”  Amen to that.  Years ago, I was in a bible study class where someone actually said (not about this issue):  “I know that is what the bible says, but I’m just not going to do that”.  If you follow Jesus and call Him Lord, then you should make every effort to do what He instructs.  I think we can clearly see this in the way He rebukes churches in Revelation and so to me one serious mark of maturity and commitment is a Jesus follower who says not my will, but yours Lord.

              I don’t want to get into too many details about my marriage specifically because my wife is a private person and I want to honor that, but at the same time I want the truth of His ways to bless others so I will say that His ways have been an incredible blessing to us and our family.  I was not a good leader for many years and honestly my wife could have been so much more blessed had I known how to lead.  I’ve been at this biblical marriage thing for probably 10 years now and doing it His way and honoring Him in the way things are done has been incredible.  My wife and I have grown so much stronger with each other as a result, there is hardly ever any strife, and if there is, it is often miscommunication and resolved quickly.  God has blessed me and He deserves all the praise!  I like to think that when a wife is in a boat with her husband and he is directing it, you know they are both going the same direction.  That even has its risks because it is on the husband to make sure they are going the right direction, but it is still the way God says to do it.

              So…submission to me is a wife who follows and respects her husband.  It is a wife who does not think herself above her husband (which isn’t to say she has to think herself below her husband, but she does need to accept that her position is lower than her husband and operate with that truth).  She prays for him, she looks for the good in him, she speaks well of him when she has the opportunity, she respectfully gives her opinion so her husband has the best information with which to make decisions, and she does his will.  As the bible says she does good to him all the days of his life.  She is a crown upon his head, she represents him well, and doing these things she will certainly be a ruby to him.

              This goes hand in hand with leadership from the husband.  Decision are not easy so I understand your husband’s apprehension in crossing a line.  This is a good thing, thought and prayer should be put into decisions.  Some lines shouldn’t be crossed and some decisions are hard.  Ultimately when I make a decision I am very mindful that this decision affects more than myself and it usually carries a weight.  Sometimes my decision will benefit my flesh (simple example, but where do we want to go for dinner?), but sometimes my decision will be to take my wife where she wants to go for dinner (treating her flesh as my flesh).  He endures for her, He protects her, He encourages and teaches holiness in her, He lifts her, He enjoys her, He loves her.  He is always looking for a way to restore if she goes out of bounds with him, just as our Father in heaven looks to restore.  He is not touchy or easily hurt.  He has a big picture of the path he wants to see his family on and that picture is aligned with what scripture says is right.

              I honestly think that one of the toughest things in marriage is simply the competition between husband and wife over everything, the constant battle and puffed and hurt prides wage war against what God has created for good.  His model solves all of that by making a way for blessing and growth and honors Him and what He has done with Jesus and His bride, the church.  How great is that?

              On the floor Answered on December 24, 2019.
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                A Bible teacher once gave us this visual…. “submission is willingly coming up under to support the whole”. And she gave the picture of one going under a table and lifting it up with her shoulders/back.

                Every believer is called to “Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.” (Eph. 5:21) then it says, “Wives, [submit yourselves] to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.”

                I would ask one, ” What does your relationship to the Lord look like?” Is there submission there? If we aren’t sure what it looks like, we actually need to study Jesus, He’s our example in His submission to the Father. We each should be as Christ.

                In our marriage, and this has been stated by other sisters here, when submission, leading and marriage is done right, what people see from the oustside is a unified couple working together. There’s oneness…. just as Jesus said, “Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.” Strife will be absent and there will be peace and joy. A husband is loving and respecting his wife and she is him.

                But let’s face it, every single marriage is made up of two sinners, whether one, both, or none are covered and saved by the blood of Jesus. This is what will cause tension, turmoil, conflict, etc, etc. We have a war constantly waging within us where our flesh sets itself up against the Spirit. (Gal. 5) None of us are yet perfected and are in the process of being sanctified, made holy. Praise God for His grace!

                We are a team. My husband would be a fool to not take into account my God given giftings, and he’s not. He asks and desires to hear my thoughts, feelings and opinions on an array of topics and decisions. This is part of true intimacy. In major life decisions, he absolutely believes that the Lord will unify us if it’s His will. Submission does not mean not having a voice, not having input, not having your own mind, will, or emotions. A strong, loving man can and will give his wife the freedom to express those and he will take them into account, not only take them into account but will hold you near (fig. or lit.) through them.

                Practically speaking, I have to make a choice to not step in and make decisions when he is waivering. I can’t constantly “oppose” him and his ways…. so when he’s not doing the dishes the way I like, at least he’s willingly doing them to help me out. It’s okay for me to let him do things his way, even if I feel there’s a better way. When I say I don’t care where we eat, and he makes a choice, we go with it. We have parameters that we have established, that he gives me full reign in, where he isn’t “micromanaging”, for example, with homeschooling.  

                I also went through a real test and had to learn to be okay with things falling apart and destruction in our life, trusting the Lord is in control, even when my husband was not fully walking according to the Word. That’s hard, it can break a person and a marriage. And in that, we have to be properly focused on Christ and His promises for any hope of survival. And even when one is, there are still questions and mysteries of “why?”. He also has had to own the fact and carry the burden that our marriage, and I, ended up where we did because he “led” us here. When a wife chooses to submit, a husband leads, even if he is going nowhere or even backwards. They don’t always take us forward in the right direction. But it comes down to, am *I* being lovingly obedient to the Lord?

                I will stop with this, submitting and respecting go hand in hand, Eph 5:33 tells us “The wife must respect her husband.” The Amplified Bible helps us understand “respect” better, “Let the wife see that she respects and reverences her husband [that she notices him, regards him, honors him, prefers him, venerates, and esteems him; and that she defers to him, praises him, and loves and admires him exceedingly.]

                Under the stars Answered on December 24, 2019.
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                  You’ve all given me so much to pray upon and process. It will take me some time. I thank you for your well designed answers.

                  One_woman_man, thank you for your comments on mutual submission. I’ve been on boards where men and women choose to overlook that passage, I think in part because it’s difficult to understand for many.

                  SeekingChange, you are so right that one’s relationship with the Lord helps us define what our submission in marriage looks like. I think that I must start with that evaluation of myself.

                  Sd595, I know that competition was a large issue for us, and particularly in the first 10 years. My mental breakdown happened in years 10/11, and much has changed since then. However, it is only in the last 3 years or so that I’ve realized I’ve been picking and choosing my Bible verses. Submission and respect weigh heavily on my conscience. I

                  You’ve all given me a good place from which to start directing my improvement efforts. With God’s grace, this journey I am on will bless our marriage.

                  Blanket on a secluded beach! Answered on December 24, 2019.
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                    One problem is that our culture has affected the way we read scripture and interpret God’s instructions to us.  It is easier to see the meaning behind scripture relating to husbands and wives when we look at the analogy God provides us of Jesus and His church.  His ways are not natural to us.  We have both an example of Jesus giving Himself up for her and an example of Him greatly rebuking her in Revelation when she goes off course to His will.  Both of these are love.

                    I disagree with the interpretation of Eph 5:21 that it is saying that men must submit to women, or that a husband must submit to his wife.  Immediately following this verse, scripture goes into very clear detail that a wife should submit to her husband as they do the Lord, and the husband is given a very different set of instructions.  This does not make any sense if you interpret Eph 5:21 that way, does it?  Nowhere in the bible does it instruct the Father to submit to Jesus, Jesus to submit to the church, husbands to submit to their wives, men to submit to women, parents to submit to children, etc.  Eph 5:21 must be understood in the proper context of His order which is defined in 1 Cor 11:

                    “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.”

                    Given this, Eph 5:21 should be interpreted to convey men relating to men, women relating to women, children relating to children, that they should submit to one another in reverence to Jesus.  Otherwise, it would seem to be a direct contradiction to the verses immediately following it and the rest of scripture that all aligns towards His order.  I know others will disagree and that is ok, but I would suggest that if something doesn’t make sense, it needs to be taken in the context of all scripture to interpret its full and accurate meaning.

                    On the floor Answered on December 24, 2019.

                    Given this, Eph 5:21 should be interpreted to convey men relating to men, women relating to women, children relating to children sd595 i do not think the verse is interpreted that way, i do indeed think it is the Christian mandate to have submission AT THE HEART of every believer and their relationship to one another and then it is further broken down into the family relationship.  The submission mandate is to safeguard against our natural sinful nature of man desiring to rule over woman and woman’s desire  for her husband (which has been interpreted as her desire for dominance over him).  Yes there is a hierarchy but i do not believe you can define Eph 5:21 in women only submitting to other women, men only submitting to other men. I also do not believe as you have stated in another post that a wife must accept her position as “less than” or the lesser.

                    i do not think the Lord requires me to submit to men other than my husband.

                    on December 24, 2019.

                    I agree with you SOA, with the exception, that I do believe there is a time and place where we are to submit to other men, such as when they are in a place of authority.  But we have to keep it in context with the rest of Scripture, such as, “I will obey God rather than men.”  and where our first responsibilities lie.  I have willingly placed myself under other men as pastors, as leaders, as brothers and as friends.  Now their authority over me is limited, and there’s no one who has the depth and width of say and responsibility over me as my husband does.

                    I also have had men submit to me, willingly coming under me to support a specific ministry as a whole.  I lead a team, and I have more men under me than women. They willingly submit to my leadership, or they wouldn’t be part of this specific ministry. 

                    on December 24, 2019.

                    Amen, sister.

                    on December 24, 2019.

                    SOA-The thing that is the most logical is that Eph 5:21 is about men submitting to men in a general sense.  It says nothing about the heart.  I don’t think that anyone who read it at the time it was written would interpret it to mean that a man should submit to a woman.  And again, given the verses that follow, it would make no sense that it would mean this.  Only if it is taken on its own outside the verses that follow it and the rest of scripture could it be seen this way.

                    Man ruling over woman is God’s design, not sinful nature.  It can’t be sinful nature because it is God who puts a husband in authority over his wife.

                    I agree that the Lord does not require you to submit to men besides your husband – do you see why Eph 5:21 also makes no sense for this reason?

                    She doesn’t have to think she is lesser (which is what I said above), but if she has to accept what the bible says the order is:  God is the head of Jesus who is the head of the man who is the head of the woman.

                    SC-A man helping you is not submitting to you because you don’t (or shouldn’t 1 Tim 2:12) have any hierarchy/authority over him.  He may do what you request or what you ask, but it is not submission.  Submission requires hierarchy/authority.

                    on December 24, 2019.

                    @sd, your interpretation is by far in the minority….in fact, I have never heard a church, a Bible study, nor a pastor interpret it that way. That ought to say something.

                    on December 24, 2019.

                    I feel the same SC, i think a lot of that teaching originates from the so called bible teachers on marriage that exist on the internet such as biblical gender roles guy… he is wrong on so many issues but i think a lot of men gravitate to his teachings. Quite dangerous.

                    Also “man ruling over woman” was a consequence of the FALL..of sin. God was warning them about what the aftermath of their sin would look like. Death would enter the world, woman would have greatly increased pain in childbirth and man would rule over woman (and history certainly bears that out of the sexual evil that men have perpetrated on women) when Christ came, he was the great liberator of women, what a God we serve! Yes there is headship but that is a far cry from RULING.

                    And men (husbands) were NEVER commanded to “rule”, they are commanded to love their wives and live with them in an understanding way and if not, their prayers will not be heard.  Wives are commanded to submit and that is different from obedience.

                    on December 25, 2019.

                    A man ruling his family well is a requirement of an overseer (1 Tim 3:4) and therefore must be good and right.

                    Who was held accountable first after the fall?  The one who sinned first, or the one who was in charge (ruling) that failed to rule?

                    When headship no longer involves ruling and submission no longer involves obedience then likely marriage is no longer analogous to Jesus and His church, but something that fits much more comfortably into the current equality culture.  The Word is the Word and how He wishes husbands and wives to interact is plainly given.  The further marriages get from His model, the worse it gets, for both men and women.

                    Jesus came to save men and women from their sin.

                    on December 25, 2019.

                    SoA:  Your comment about history bearing out the fact of man ruling over woman through the evidence of sexual sin prompted another thought for me–the “glass ceiling” as well. Women have been oppressed in many ways throughout history, often considered little more than property, but I had not considered before that it might be a result of the judgement that happened at the fall. Now that I have, it makes perfect sense. Praise God for his grace that has allowed the progress that has been made in how women are treated.

                    on December 26, 2019.

                    Many of these comments would suggest that men are always oppressors, women are always victims, sex is evil, and Jesus primarily came to save the women from the men.

                    There have also been good men over history who loved and cherished their wives, doing the good that God tells husbands to do.  There have been great wives who have done right by their husbands just as the bible instructs them to like Sarah.  This is our example of what is right along with what God says is right.  Does sin corrupt it?  Sure.  Whose fault is that?  Ours.  Is His plan flawed because of sin?  Never.
                    Essentially what I keep hearing is, “because of abuse”, we can’t do it the way the bible says it should be done.  Where is the faith in that?  There has been abuse, but there has also been Godly marriages over the centuries that glorified God.  Look at our modern culture, is doing it our way better, or does it lead to less holiness and more destruction.  A good man will do good operating in the Lord’s plan, a bad man will do badly in any plan.

                    on December 26, 2019.

                    sd595, come on, you are generalizing our statements.

                    The plain fact of the matter is… because of the fall and sin, there were natural consequences as God told Adam and Eve.  Woman shall have increased pain in childbirth (if this was the ORIGINAL DESIGN, God would not have said to Eve because you have sinned, this will be the consequence, so it is implied she did not have pain or very much pain before the Fall) and that her husband would RULE over her….this is far from headship which i do believe Adam had.

                    And YES sd595, just as you have stated that you see that the desire of women to usurp their husband and be unsubmissive  rampant in today’s society and even now in the church, there is irrefutable evidence of men’s sinful nature to rule and oppress. You cannot deny the countless stories of women (and your sisters, Christian women) who have been victims of this, not only of sexual sin but a misinterpretation of scripture that all women should have an attitude of submission to all men (at least that’s what i’ve heard from some preachers of this view)

                    Obviously you’re firmly entrenched in this view and you can have the last word which i am sure you will.

                    on December 26, 2019.

                    Isn’t it wonderful, that in Christ, under the New Covenant of grace, the old is gone (even when much of those in the church today still want to mix it with the new and live by it), and we see from Gal. 3:26-29 there is equality and diversity.  In Christ there is no race, no class, and no gender, we are all heirs according to promise.

                    26 For you [who are born-again have been reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified and] are all children of God [set apart for His purpose with full rights and privileges] through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ [into a spiritual union with the Christ, the Anointed] have clothed yourselves with Christ [that is, you have taken on His characteristics and values]. 28 There is [now no distinction in regard to salvation] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you [who believe] are all one in Christ Jesus [no one can claim a spiritual superiority]. 29 And if you belong to Christ [if you are in Him], then you are Abraham’s descendants, and [spiritual] heirs according to [God’s] promise.” (AMP)

                    on December 26, 2019.

                    Adam had authority and responsibility to rule Eve before the fall.  He failed which is why God held him accountable first.  Headship and biblical order have always been God’s design from the beginning which is evidenced everywhere in scripture including the Genesis story.  God was informing Eve that what came naturally to her before the fall (following her husband), would now be much more difficult as a result of sin.  Headship and rule are the same thing.  Again, see 1 Tim 3:4 – a large number of translations use the word rule.

                    I never said all women should submit to all men; nor do I believe that; nor does the bible teach that.

                    I am very concerned about my Christian sisters – concerned about about they are treated and about their holiness just as I am concerned about my Christian brothers.  I am very concerned that the church is teaching them false doctrine that they themselves (and their husbands) could go right to the word and see is false.  I am concerned about divorce and adultery and unfaithfulness and how so many marriages fail as a result of the enemies’ lies.  I am concerned about the husbands who will face the Lord to be called the wicked servant who buried his talent because he did not manage well the wife and family he was entrusted with, but was deceived into thinking he was doing good by being idle.  I am concerned about wives who could have grown in holiness, but instead stagnated as a result of an inactive husband.

                    Yes there are bad husbands and there are bad wives, and yet God still puts husbands at the head to rule their families.  He did this, not me.  He even says that if a husband doesn’t rule well, he shouldn’t be an overseer (pastor).  What does this tell us?

                    Yes, I am entrenched in the Word and only an argument from the Word will sway me.

                    on December 26, 2019.

                    SC- Yes in salvation there is no male or female.  Then the rest of the NT goes on and on about how God wants husbands and wives to live with each other in a way that honors Him.

                    on December 26, 2019.

                    @sd, “Yes, I am entrenched in the Word and only an argument from the Word will sway me.”

                    I don’t think this is true.  It seems you have made up your mind what the “right” interpretation is, and no matter what others present from the Word, if it doesn’t fit with your interpretation, they are “wrong” and you are still “right”.  It actually is constantly reminding me of the spirit of the Pharisees, which I think is why this is constantly rubbing me the wrong way…. they were pretty darn sure and confident enough, from their Scriptures, that Jesus was wrong, He was a liar, He was a blasphemer, and He wasn’t who He said He was because He was in great contrast to their interpretation of their Scriptures.  Whether it’s true in the heart or it’s just coming across in this limited format of communication, but there is a major lack of grace that is emitted.

                    What is ironic, is much of my own personal convictions probably align up with your message more than any other wife on here (from my limited knowledge), several of these wives could vouch for the fact that they have spoken to me about their belief that I have swayed too far in my own submission towards my husband (eh, sisters? 😉 ) And still, I disagree with you.

                    There’s peace in the fact that 1) it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, not mine or yours or anyone here, and 2) God will lovingly and mercifully discipline those He loves.

                    I am realizing, if my purpose was to actually “sway” you, a man, I would be wasting my time, because under your interpretation of “submit to one another”, a woman has no right or “authority” to teach, rebuke, correct and train in righteousness any brother in Christ.  (Which doesn’t that mean, by your own words, if a woman doesn’t have to submit to any other man but her husband, means there is no other male authority over us in the church either?… sorry, rabbit trail).  Therefore, I personally speak up, not for your sake, but for the sake of the brothers with open hearts, who believe the Lord can and will speak through a lowly female, and for the sisters here.  This will be my focus from now on.

                    on December 26, 2019.

                    SC- I keep pointing back to scripture again and again, but every rebuttal against what I suggest is either (1) no scripture given at all, (2) scripture given that is vague and proven false with other scripture that is specific to what is being discussed, or (3) arguments over word meanings. The Word is God (John 1:1, 2 Tim 3:16).  I have made up my mind about what scripture plainly says, but I am willing to reconsider anything I think if a more specific scripture is brought that says the opposite or there is something I don’t know.  In the end I must trust the Word, because again the Word is God.

                    Nobody has to agree with me; nor do I think myself better than anyone else.  We both think we are correct, and that is okay.  I cannot judge another’s servant (Romans 14:4).  The Lord has blessed me and I wish to share what He has revealed to me in hopes that it will bless others.  I wish you the best blessings and everyone here the same.  I want good for everyone (and I believe God is big enough to bless everyone) even if we disagree about the details.

                    There is a huge problem in the body of Christ and churches that they are going off course and following culture instead of Jesus.  This topic is only one example of many.

                    Yes, according to the bible a woman should not have authority over a man (1 Tim 2;12).  That doesn’t mean I can’t listen to your ideas, thoughts, points, and study scripture you may wisely bring to a discussion.  It means what it says, that a woman shouldn’t teach or exercise authority over a man.  In fact I often think you bring exceptional information.

                    on December 26, 2019.
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                      I hear where you are coming from DoveGrey, and I agree that there is no way that Eph 5:21 gives a wife equal authority.  That would be completely illogical given the rest of scripture and especially the verses immediately following.  I also agree that the tone of it is one of a general sense of submission between believers, but you have to look at the culture it was written to and for to understand that it was talking to an outside the family level and outside the family level didn’t involve women in one family interacting with men in another to this degree.  To try to use it as a backdoor (not saying you do this, but many do) to say that men are instructed to submit to women (when it doesn’t say that) and throw out 1 Tim 2:12 which specifically says otherwise is clearly a false interpretation and can not work.

                      Jesus was not submitting to His disciples, but serving them.  There is a time for a husband to serve his wife, and I joyfully serve my wife all the time, but I do not submit to her.  Not because I don’t think she has great ideas, but because it is the way God has made things.  How many times have we seen the so called servant leadership (which perhaps should be called submission leadership) play out to complete disaster here?  There is a time for a husband to be lovingly patient with his wife’s sin, and there is a time for him to lead her out of it with correction and discipline.  This is the example we have from Jesus in scripture.  I know that doesn’t fit with modern ideas, but that only shows that modern ideas are wrong.  It doesn’t matter what I say, what you say, what anyone says, it matters what God has said on the subject in His Word.  All I am saying is that God has clearly defined a way that honors Him and mirrors Christ and His church and I firmly believe there is blessing in doing things in a way that honors Him.  I want the entire body of Christ to be blessed, husbands, wives, children, every member.

                      On the floor Answered on December 26, 2019.
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                        A narrow interpretation is taking Eph 5:21 at what is says on its own and applying a modern bias to it, without considering the entire width of scripture.  The entire width of scripture shows that it cannot possibly mean what people want it to mean unless it is taken on its own.  I have proven this to be true as it is in direct violation of 1 Tim 2:12.  Which is the narrow interpretation?

                        Where there is sin, there will be the potential for abuse.  We can live His model or we can modify it to our liking.  Do we know more than Him?

                        I trust the Word over the doctrine of man and it has not steered me wrong.

                        Follow what you have faith in brothers and sisters.

                        On the floor Answered on December 26, 2019.
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