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Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

What is lust? What isn't? How can I guard myself...
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Link+Zelda
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by Link+Zelda »

@GG: I don't think either @NWNL or myself has asked you to not ask questions. I merely provided the links for convenience, and they weren't just for you, they were for everyone. I have included links to old threads in my answers to many other posters during my time here, even to seasoned veterans of TMB. My links may get an eye roll (:roll:) from some, but I have definitely been thanked personally by people for providing them at times, with those people showing much appreciation. I will continue to do so.

Now, there could be times with very simple questions where a response is along the lines of "look at this thread that answers your question exactly", but that isn't applicable to this thread.

And as I understand it, this "Best Answer" system and even "voting" will go away with the new-new system (which was like the old system) in just a couple weeks. Most people seem to agree that the new boards will be superior.

-Scott
-Link+Zelda
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by Deleted User 1388 »

Thanks for the information.  Yes, as a new member as of October 29, your links are awesome help to me to go back in time so keep them coming.  I'm anxious to experience the new board.  BTW, Dale? had a link to "preview" the new board and I missed the link and was not able to veiw.  Do you have that?
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by SLS »

I commented on her recent post regarding this issue so you can read my thoughts there as well as below. Its the next to last comment.

https://tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2020/12/your-final-words-on-the-stumbling-block-debate-about-lust-and-modesty/

In short while I don't agree with everything she says and am a bit concerned by what I see as her "overcommercialism" Shelia's basic point is correct. A woman is not responsible for a man's lust.

Note here that lusting is not looking and looking is not gawking. Humans are observational beings, we notice things. Yes, men in general tend to be visual and yes the site of a beautiful woman can create an unwanted biological response (e.g, erection). However once that happens we have a choice.

We can choose not to gawk/lust over that person. A naked woman could walk right in front of me right now and yes I will possibly have a biological response (immediately accompanied by "who are you and how did you get in my house?"). But I am not forced to imagine myself in bed with her or ogle her to arouse myself. I am fully capable of saying no.

Should women dress themselves in a way that honors themselves and (for those who follow Christ) honors Jesus? Yes (and men should do that too). But the focus needs to be on the woman's own personal relationship with Christ and her own self worth.

In other words, she shouldn't be taught that the reason she should dress modestly is because men can't help treating her as a sex object. What does that type of teaching do to a young woman's conception of sex?

We talk rightfully about the pain and damage sexual refusal* does to a husband. What if one of the hangups some women have about sex is that they are told that men are incapable of preventing themselves from lusting after the closest woman who shows a bit of skin?

*Just wanted to note here that it's important not to forget the 25% or so of sexless marriages where the wife is sexually refused. I only mentioned husbands above due to the context of the discussion (impact of incorrect modesty teaching on female sexuality).
Happily married to Serafina for 6.75 years. She is my Venus. ::luv2
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by Deleted User 1388 »

I read your comment on Sheila's message board too!  It was good to see further explanation.  Thanks for sharing both here and there.
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by JLoydH »

Good thoughts SLS...  you express what I believe to be true on this subject very well.
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by SeekingChange »

@GG, I can't make this a live link at the moment, but here's the link you asked for in your comment to @Scott, it's actually shared by PaulB, not Dale.

https://qna.themarriagebed.com/question/new-boards-timeline/
God can change what people do, behavioral patterns that have been in play for decades. He can change what we do to cope, to find comfort, to survive conflict, to count. Rahab had done a same old thing for years... and then she did something new.
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by Deleted User 1388 »

Thank you so much.
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by Raymond »

I haven't been part of any discussion on this but I would say that modesty in an obvious command of scripture. This doesn't mean a woman  has to dress all dowdy. I can admire a well dressed woman but she has to know what is seductive and what might cause lust. Men are told by Jesus that if they look on a woman and lust they have already committed adultery in their hearts. Yes men have a responsibility to control their eyes but it is loving not to dress in such a way as to make it easier for the enemy.  This is the reason why good sex is so important in a marriage. In 1 Cor 7 we are told that our spouses have power over our bodies and to come together so that the enemy cannot tempt us elsewhere.
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by JLoydH »

Well said Raymond!  Thank you.
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Re: Shaming men who look. Who is to blame?

Post by SeekingChange »

I was slow to answer because I have shared about this multiple times, and I try to spare others of repetitiveness.   :)  And I am not going to give a minute to listen to that particular podcaster/blogger. I just copied my thoughts from another answer...

Here’s an attitude that I was taught when we were taking a mission trip into another culture, and I think it’s applicable here.  Hopefully I can communicate it clear enough that you all can get it.

It’s all about honor.  Honor is an outward expression of an inward respect.  I believe we should have respect for all our fellow man, if for no other reason, because of our love and respect of the Creator in whom they are created in the image of.

As we were going into another culture, they have many religions and they have these “sacred mountains” and other “sacred” images and places.  As Christians, we know that the worship of these places is idolatry and sin.  We can be totally against what the people believe and what these beliefs stand for.  Some people may even feel justified in showing disrespect to these cultural customs, beliefs, and places…therefore showing disrespect to the whole people and nation.  Some may feel like they are totally justified to desecrate these places.  Our mission leader was very adamant to teach us to show love to these people by honoring them (an outward sign of an inward respect).  Though we did not agree with their stances and beliefs, we would honor the people, by showing respect to the places they believed were “sacred”.

How does this apply with this modesty/lust topic?   Though I may not agree on certain stances people take around modesty, the least I can do is show honor to my “weaker brother”.  I can honor (and love) others by laying aside some of my own preferences and freedoms.  And though I may even have “permission” to practice my freedom, I have to ask “Is it beneficial, not just for me, but for my fellow brothers and sisters?  Am I being being mastered by anything, such as my own pride or self-righteousness?”   Whether a man dishonors a woman, lusts, or flat our revels in his lust… that’s on him.  But my choice to show honor, or dishonor, for the “weaker brother”, whether I am willfully going to be a cause of stumbling, that’s on me.

God can change what people do, behavioral patterns that have been in play for decades. He can change what we do to cope, to find comfort, to survive conflict, to count. Rahab had done a same old thing for years... and then she did something new.
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