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The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

How does God fit into our sex lives?
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SLS
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Re: The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

Post by SLS »

Link+Zelda wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:25 pmThe fact is, the average woman takes a lot more time/effort to reach orgasm than the average man. And the least-orgasmic quartile probably has an even larger discrepancy, requiring over half an hour of fine-tuned effort or even machine assistance for women (what men require that?). Personally, my wife was sexually active for over 13 yr with a lover who did push for her pleasure before she got her first awake O--and that was only achieved via a machine. She's tried solo masturbation with her hand--doesn't really work. Oral is better for her, but it never got her there.
Nothing I said above disputes with anything you are saying here. Of course on average women take more time and effort to reach orgasm. The point is are men being encouraged to understand that and provide the extra stimulation required or is the underlying presupposition that a woman is broken if a husband can't bring her to O after a few minutes of pounding in intercourse?
I wonder if people are using the Hite Report to claim that women masturbating have similar orgasmic potential as men. As I understand, that book claimed 95% of women O, and they do so within just a few minutes. It also claimed that foreplay is unnecessary for this.
That is most definitely not the research I am referring to. The point of the book is actually antithetical to the idea that women orgasm in a few minutes or that foreplay is unnecessary .
I completely agree with that first sentence--the lack of understanding is a major driver. However, I disagree with the instant transition to talking about Christian culture, which insinuates it is to blame. Yes, parts of Christian culture have hindered wife's advances in the bedroom, but this is a worldwide thing, including areas that are not associated with the Abrahamic religions.
The book is specifically written to Christians so one should expect that "cultural Christian" ideas about sex would be referenced. I agree that this a worldwide issue but that shouldn't stop us from looking at our own issues.
Look, I agree that parts of the church have done a poor job on this. But to treat the issue like men and women are similarly responsive biologically and then insinuate that the issue is the church is just wrong. There's more than enough data to show that, and even a casual read through secular forums like Reddit would show that this is a problem everywhere.
You misunderstand. The whole point of the book is not to treat men and women as if they are the same biologically. It is to call attention to those very differences and for men and women to be taught what best satisfies the other.
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Re: The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

Post by Link+Zelda »

SLS wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:53 pm I think you are conflating orgasm complexity with orgasm rate. It is true that in general a woman's path to orgasm is more complicated than a man's but that isn't really an explanation as to why there is such a large gap in achieving orgasm.
This response jives with what I've said about people that haven't had to fight the way many of us here have had to for our "OD" (orgasm difficulties subgroup based on the link to the study you provided) wives. During her Luteal Phase, Zelda may well take over an hour of direct stimulation with her favorite vibe on its highest setting in order to achieve O...and that's after a day where I treat her like a queen, we've connected non-sexually, and we've have 30+ minutes of non-physical foreplay. We've gone 2 hr in the past. This longer time to reach O starts to play into the gap eventually.
To use an analogy I had students who could finish a 2 hour test in 30 minutes and get a good score. That is just how their brains and personalities worked. I had other students who took the whole 2 hours but also got good scores. In other words the students that took the whole time period had a more complicated path but they achieved the same result.
This example is a great example of what I'm talking about above. What if a student would require 3 hr? 8 hr? 36 hr? (Note that these numbers are actually reasonable on a relative scale--I've seen a wife on XY Code say it normally takes 90 sec for her to O after warming up...that's 80× faster than a 2-hr session for Zelda, and that wife was using her fingers whereas Zelda was using a powerful vibe. The difference between 30 min and 36 hr is only 72×). At some point, the length of time to achieve O starts to play significantly into the orgasm gap. Most "OD" women fully understand this and much prefer to have quick "for him" sex that they find quite enjoyable, but they don't get aroused enough from it to be left "hanging". They enjoy this type of sex and would prefer it over having an orgasm on that night. Honestly, those kinds of sessions are not at all uncommon, and I really think they need to be subtracted from the denominator of the orgasm-gap equation...otherwise, you're telling the woman they are supposed to have an O that they don't want.
A woman may need significantly more stimulation to achieve orgasm but there is nothing inherent in general biology that would prevent her from orgasming.
I disagree.
Orgasm at all? Maybe. However, this research would actually disagree. In it, only 93% of OD women (25% of whom had never had an O) were able to achieve O with the Magic Wand. That leaves 7% that still couldn't despite therapy in the study plus an insanely popular/powerful/successful vibrator. As I recall, you haven't tried the wand--we recently got one, and Zelda was readily able to O on setting 2 of 4, so she's not even that far out on the "OD" tail. (Side note--she still likes her Touch better, but we're using the Wand as backup and have also used it for several massages--it's great for that! :D )

Orgasm within the time reasonably available for sex? Definitely not. Regarding the "reasonable time", we've done 80 min on her favorite vibe until it ran out of batteries, 15 min on an air-based clitoral stimulator while the vibe recharged, then another 25 min with the charge on the vibe again before she gave up. All that on top of 30+ min of non-physical foreplay. At that point, its 1 am or later, and she's just ready to go to bed. Trying to eliminate the gap by having me not O in those sessions or continuing on into the night to try to force one out of her is unhelpful. The people pushing these ideas in these blogs seem to be much more readily orgasmic and don't deal with this directly, at least not on a regular basis. It's a good thing that I don't accept what they're saying at face value, otherwise my wife would still be anorgasmic, as they oppose the use of vibrators because it "lessens intimacy" (note that the opposite has been true in my marriage).
SLS wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:07 pm ...Of course on average women take more time and effort to reach orgasm. The point is are men being encouraged to understand that and provide the extra stimulation required or is the underlying presupposition that a woman is broken if a husband can't bring her to O after a few minutes of pounding in intercourse?
You know very well from my previous posting that I don't think "a few minutes of pounding in intercourse" will do it. Honestly, I can only think of one guy in my time at TMB who thinks anything like like. You almost certainly know that too, so I find this comment pretty disingenuous. From my reading here, Christian blog comments, and secular sources like Reddit, I do see that there is a small percentage of men (and women for that matter) that think that, but from my experience, this percentage is similar between secular and Christian men. Please note, we have done up to 2 hr of OS (combined with internal MS) without reaching O for her. It's not for lack of trying, and it was Zelda that cut off OS so she wouldn't feel broken by the lack of O. Oh, and for the record, it's not a "few minutes" of intercourse--I can, and have, done over an hour of doggy style with her using her favorite vibe the whole time--her choice of vibe, position, and thrusting angle/force...still no O for that session even though that combination is the most arousing thing we know for her.
You misunderstand. The whole point of the book is not to treat men and women as if they are the same biologically. It is to call attention to those very differences and for men and women to be taught what best satisfies the other.
You use the word "satisfies" here, but I think it's clear that a not-insignificant portion of wives sometimes prefer not to O during a sexual session. That's what gives them the most satisfaction, for whatever reason(s). Maybe the book should have paid attention to this difference between men and women too. The figures I mentioned earlier in the thread strongly support that, as they show weak correlation between O gap and sexual satisfaction. Until one can provide an unbiased denominator-adjusted study where the women not wanting O's in their O-free sessions are subtracted out, I think O-gap data is a poor proxy for sexual satisfaction. In my opinion, the study in question is heavily biased, and to my knowledge it's objectively true that it's not denominator adjusted.
The book is specifically written to Christians so one should expect that "cultural Christian" ideas about sex would be referenced. I agree that this a worldwide issue but that shouldn't stop us from looking at our own issues.
Overall, in my experience, the problem with the teaching from the church isn't so much that it's "incorrect sexual education", especially when compared to secular "sexual education". Instead, the problem is the "absent sexual education" from the church, at least for many of us. That really makes "our own issues" the same as the world's. Again, just go to a place like Reddit (which is highly agnostic/atheistic/anti-theistic), and you'll see all of these same issues (bad ones) except for ones trying to directly invoke scripture.

Thus, in my opinion, "looking at our own issues" is pretty much equivalent to looking at the nationwide view. As an analogy, to help someone who is horrible with money, I'd much rather focus on their three expensive car loans and exorbitant eat-out budget than focus on the $5/month they waste by leaving their bathroom light on all day. Yes, the bathroom light contributes to the problem, but it's only a tiny fraction of the issue, and much more headway can be made working on the other stuff. And, yes, I do realize there are a few churches/denominations that do have "incorrect sexual education", but again, my experience has been its absence rather than incorrectness. The next time I hear something like "It's easy, you'll figure it out on your own..." I may have a hernia! :x
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Re: The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

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Based on my experience, the difficulty in achieving an O certainly contributes to the orgasm gap. I also have a DW who requires a wand to orgasm. No amount of manual or oral stimulation has ever given her an orgasm. And, there are times when even an hour of wand-use will not get her over the edge. Also, she can only really orgasm easily from one brand of magic wand. We have tried many others, with very limited success. In fact, I think she has orgasmed with only one other wand, and one other vibrator.

Prior to turning to the vibrator, we read dozens of books and tried every method, position, exercise under the sun to help her achieve an O. No luck. Obviously, this included many sessions during which foreplay would last for up to an hour or more leading only to her lady bits becoming sore. I kick myself every day for not turning sooner to the use of a sex toy, and think that if I acted sooner we might have been spared 20 years during which she never orgasmed.

It is difficult for me to believe this is not due to some underlying biological reason related to her sexual anatomy, hormones, etc. My experience does not constitute a 'proof' of this hypothesis, but as Link pointed out many people who contribute to this forum have similar experiences, and it is hard to believe that 'incorrect sexual education' is the root cause of a woman not getting an orgasm even after over an hour of powerful, direct clitoral stimulation from one of the most power vibrators on the planet.
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Re: The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

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Link+Zelda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:29 pmWe've gone 2 hr in the past. This longer time to reach O starts to play into the gap eventually.
Olorin wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:19 amIt is difficult for me to believe this is not due to some underlying biological reason related to her sexual anatomy, hormones, etc. My experience does not constitute a 'proof' of this hypothesis, but as Link pointed out many people who contribute to this forum have similar experiences, and it is hard to believe that 'incorrect sexual education' is the root cause of a woman not getting an orgasm even after over an hour of powerful, direct clitoral stimulation from one of the most power vibrators on the planet.
I think this is an example of a faulty generalization and a misinterpretation of what I am saying. Both of you have wives who need a lot of time and effort to orgasm. I am not saying that this is in any way due to any kind of fault on your parts as by your statements y'all have worked together with your spouses on this journey.

There will always be exceptions that prove the rule. Lets take a look at the other side of the coin. There are wives on this forum with husbands who struggle with delayed ejaculation that also require a lot of time and effort to achieve orgasm. There may well be a biological reason for this. However, we shouldn't extrapolate those couple's experiences and declare that there something inherently biological that affects all men and prevents orgasm.

I also never said that incorrect sexual education is the singular root cause of every woman's orgasm struggles, much less that it was the cause of your wives' orgasm difficulties. I am merely pointing out that men and women not knowing and embracing the female arousal path (and in some extreme cases guys refusing to learn because of pride, machismo, etc.) can lead to orgasm difficulties. Such lack of knowledge is abundant in church approved literature on the subject and may be a significant factor in the orgasm gap.
At some point, the length of time to achieve O starts to play significantly into the orgasm gap.
There are cases, like with your wives, that regardless of how much stimulation they receive they will have a difficult time orgasming. In such cases women like your wives may find it better to forgo orgasm in some instances because of the intense effort required. I am not talking about these cases.

I am talking about when a woman is capable of achieving orgasm without such a massive effort but believes (because of incorrect sexual education) that the extra effort beyond what it takes to bring a man to orgasm is an imposition. I am talking about the couples that are taught that the way sex is "supposed to go" does not involve the amounts of manual or oral stimulation (or emotional connection) for the wife that lead to her climax.

What are we (collective we in the church) teaching young men and women in the church about how sex is supposed to go?

Are we teaching them that two minutes of intercourse is supposed to satisfy both spouses and that women are broken if that doesn't work for them or are we teaching that men and women are different and have different arousal pathways? Are we teaching them that manual stimulation/foreplay is not just a bump in the road on the way to intercourse but often the main way a woman is aroused and achieves orgasm?

In other words what message are couples internalizing when church approved resources tell them sexual pleasure is something he needs and that she gets as a "bonus"? It is that women won't expect to enjoy sex, and men won't think anything's particularly wrong if she doesn't.

Fortunately both of you and your spouses have rejected that message but there are a bunch of people who haven't.

I will finish my thoughts in the next post...
Happily married to Serafina for 7 years. She is my Venus. ::luv2
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SLS
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Re: The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

Post by SLS »

Link+Zelda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:29 pm
this research would actually disagree. In it, only 93% of OD women (25% of whom had never had an O) were able to achieve O with the Magic Wand. That leaves 7% that still couldn't despite therapy in the study plus an insanely popular/powerful/successful vibrator.


How does this extrapolate to roughly 50% of women not regularly orgasming? By the study you posted it seems that 93% of "chronically anorgasmic women" were able to orgasm after therapy and the correct type/amount of stimulation. Seems to backup my point that (excepting extreme cases) there is not an inherent biological reason for the orgasm gap.
Orgasm within the time reasonably available for sex? Definitely not. Regarding the "reasonable time", we've done 80 min on her favorite vibe until it ran out of batteries, 15 min on an air-based clitoral stimulator while the vibe recharged, then another 25 min with the charge on the vibe again before she gave up. All that on top of 30+ min of non-physical foreplay. At that point, its 1 am or later, and she's just ready to go to bed. Trying to eliminate the gap by having me not O in those sessions or continuing on into the night to try to force one out of her is unhelpful.


Again I am not talking about extreme cases. Be careful not to generalize your wife's experience and apply it to all women. Also no one is suggesting you "eliminate the gap" by denying yourself an orgasm or forcing one on her when it would be counterproductive for her.
You know very well from my previous posting that I don't think "a few minutes of pounding in intercourse" will do it. Honestly, I can only think of one guy in my time at TMB who thinks anything like like. You almost certainly know that too, so I find this comment pretty disingenuous.


You are taking this too personally. When I said "we" I meant the "collective we" as in the church as a whole. I know that you personally have done everything in your power to satisfy your wife, O or no O. I am not talking about you personally.
You use the word "satisfies" here, but I think it's clear that a not-insignificant portion of wives sometimes prefer not to O during a sexual session.


Which is why I would like to see much more research on this subject. What is the reason that the majority of these women choose not to O? Is it that orgasm is monumentally difficult and hard to achieve (like with your wife) or is there another factor involved like incorrect sexual education, sexual abuse, etc.
Thus, in my opinion, "looking at our own issues" is pretty much equivalent to looking at the nationwide view.

But remember the need to "take the plank out of our own eye." How are we going to stand for truth when many of our own resources are pushing incorrect teaching?
Happily married to Serafina for 7 years. She is my Venus. ::luv2
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Re: The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

Post by Tracker »

Sexual abuse was mentioned in the previous post. My feeling is abuse statistics way under reported or qualified. Thus a probable cause for gaps of one sort or another. T
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Re: The "Orgasm Gap" and Incorrect Sexual Education

Post by vazny »

My DW has much more Os,than me from the moment, when we found toys. As I knew from different resources including this server that woman's shoul be multi-orgasmic, I let her to have O so many times as she wanted. From other side I have got combination of AD, diabetes and obesity (both), that stated ED during yeas. So sometimes it is vice-versa. ;)
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